Turn-based combat

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Do you like this idea?

Yes
59
80%
No
13
18%
Undecided (Please list reasoning for discussion purposes)
2
3%
 
Total votes: 74
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Bmot
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby Bmot » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:10 am

Chroma Key wrote:I have changed my vote. This is a very good idea.
I have a question, though. Currently, we are able to attack someone at full strength even if you are 100% tired. Now, I can just see a char of mine devoting a year of his time to spar with himself to maximise his skill in fighting. Attack himself 7 times in an hour (using up all his strength), rest an hour, get his tiredness below 100%, attack again and rest again, and so on and so forth. Now, the damage he may or not be able to cause is not the issue here. However, this seems to allow him a hell lot of an advantage at the expense of his tiredness (and the natural consequences such as being unable to work effectively, etc). From what I understand, it is the strength of the attack that allows you to maximise your skill (and strength) - the harder the attack, the higher the skill points added to your existing points. I am not sure if the constant tiredness is a good trade off for chars emerging as msta expert fighters after a year's (insert another number depending on how low/high their skill already is) incapacity. I don't really have a stand on this point, what do people think?
Personal note: 70% of my chars are msta. 60% are expert fighters and 40% are msta expert fighters. I would not really need to undertake the above practise extensively myself.
Edit: I've just seen the solution offered to that by JSWill. If you prevent self attack "resetting the timer", doesn't that totally take the option of sparring with yourself out of the equation? I would not like that. Would it be able to be limited in another way?



Doug said something about sparring earlier, I don't thing that would be a problem ;)

Doug R. wrote:I disagree with disabling this for suicide. It's one of the reasons I like it. Remember, tiredness still applies! You're not going to be able to kill yourself in a day, because you'll be too tired -and- hurt to do it! Same for sparring. There's little benefit to sparring when more than 45% tired. I've seen the formula.


I agree with preventing 100% tiredness spam attacks, though.
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SekoETC
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby SekoETC » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:38 am

Attacking while exhausted doesn't give any skill points. You get the max skill points (I thought it was 3 but actually it's more than that) when attacking with 0 tiredness and it's just downhill from there. I investigated this and you get 7 points of skill and 2 of strength when attacking while 15% tired, and 6 points of skill and 2 points of strength while 30 % tired. That's with a waster. If you would rather train your strength, you need another kind of a weapon.
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Chroma Key
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby Chroma Key » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:43 am

I was just about to ask for clarification - thanks Seko. That answers my question.
Just out of curiosity, what is the maximum skill points you can get, and is it the same for each skill?
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby SekoETC » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:53 am

Maximum skill points per skill is 10000 but it doesn't start from 0. I don't remember where it starts exactly. Also the thing I said about 3 points was wrong, it's actually multiplied by some factors. It may have been that at some point but currently it's better.
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby Doug R. » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:29 pm

Even though it's been clarified, I'll add that there's no difference between attacking yourself 20 times in a day sparring than it would be to attack 20 different characters a day in a large town sparring, which you can do now. No one does this now, so no one will attack themselves in this manner either for the same reasons. What this does do is level the playing field for characters in isolated locations that may have a lack of sparring partners.
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Cantryjczyk
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby Cantryjczyk » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:22 am

I think it is bad idea to allow a lonely sailor on a boat with good resting furniture to train on himself 8-10 times a day with full effect. Too easy, too fast, and it discourages team play, social behavior, and rules. In a big city you can spar often but cities create special rules for that and often it fuels discussions about military, life plans, pirates etc. After such a change it would be possible to spar more often with other active people who spar back. But sparing alone is silly.
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby Misato » Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:23 pm

Cantryjczyk wrote:But sparing alone is silly.

Why is it silly? In RL you can spar with yourself (eg: punching bags) and get better. Why shouldn't it be the same for someone who chooses to hit their shield several times a day (or punch themselves in the face)?
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Cantryjczyk
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby Cantryjczyk » Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:52 pm

It is silly to make is so that hitting your own body or shield with a piece of wood many times a day is the most effective way of training. That way you wouldn't need anyone else, you wouldn't need wait for counterattack to continue, and maybe even you gain benefits from attacking and defending at the same time. I am not sure about that last one.

Cities often make regulations about who, when, and with what you can train. And how tired you can be. Because a tired ally is too easy to kill or kidnap during random pirate attacks, and doesn't contribute fully when working on projects. That makes training limited, and interesting.

Training alone, in a locked room or ship in the middle of the sea is very safe. And too easy. You want your char to be an effective fighter? Log in a few times a day and use a waster on your own body. Repeat until you have maxed skill. I call it silly.

Take a sparing-partner or two with you. Two chars cooperating will be able to make full use of resting furniture and use these 8+ attacks a day. Still too easy for my taste, but at least less silly and needs some cooperation.

The last thing we need is to eliminate one of the last good incentives for cooperation.
Każdy ma swój punkt widzenia, ale nie każdy z niego coś widzi.
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby Snickie » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:46 pm

Consider the fact that the tiredness lost from resting furniture happens at the project tick. Nobody in their right mind would waste the project tick eight times a day so they can spar.
Attacking at full strength costs 15% tiredness. The most I've seen resting furniture give at one tick is 5%. That plus the 5% you get at the automatic resting tick means you still gain 5% tiredness for each full-strength spar (if you spar once every Cantr hour). That brings us to 40% tiredness in one day.

Tea has supposedly been readded but diluted so that it's really ineffective, so, if you starve yourself and drink 8000g of tea, that only drops 6.4% tiredness. This also prevents people from purging to drink more tea because purging costs 45% tiredness. So at maximum with tea and resting furniture, you would still end up with 33.6% tiredness.

Coffee is actually more effective than tea currently. If you drink 8000g of coffee, you restore 20.8% tiredness. So, at the end of the day, if you start out with 0% tiredness and spar eight times and rest and drink coffee and nothing else (including nourishing foods) all day, you will still end up with 19.2% tiredness. If you purge and then drink another 8000g coffee, you'd be wasting a whole lot of coffee because you'd still end up at 48.4% tiredness (+45% from purging, -20.8% from coffee).

Since increased tiredness reduces skill gain (and also I've heard rumors that stomach capacity will be significantly reduced in the near future), this makes it not worth it to spar eight times a day as Cantryjczyk suggested three posts ago.

Plus, who really has that much coffee anyway?
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Cantryjczyk
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby Cantryjczyk » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:48 pm

I simply ignore existence of energy food because it is not worth using anymore. So writing about energy food is off topic.
Resting furniture restore up to 12,5% tiredness per hour. Add to that usual 5% per hour. Every hour you have back more then full attack cost you. You can attack 8+ times a day.

You can build all kinds of resting furnitures on ships, even on small ones. And when you travel, you don't have much to do other then repairing weapons and tools. Even primitive furniture and simple waster can be abused for self training. To the point that without any limitations, all reasonable travelers and explorers would train to max these skills, for self defense. What do you think about all pirates, at least these smart ones, to be best fighters possible? With iron shield such fighter can block more then 40 damage. More then most of common citizens can deal. Even alone, such pirate can drag and kill easy many people. We had one pirate lady like that in Polish Zone.

In old days I had fun learning, using, even abusing fighting mechanics in cantr. I had few criminal chars. With my knowledge, I made them efficient. I returned some time ago. My chars are all less then 30 years old now. I already maxed both fighting skill and strength skill for two of them, who decided military approach. Few more, not all, are still training.

My chars are not killers, don't have reasons. But such chars in wrong hands, can be bad for game in long run. Especially if it is to easy to make common chars into these.

If it will be possible to self train in such silly way, some of my chars will use it for own benefit. I like my chars to be efficient. But I don't like cantr to become game where you log few times a day, to click for increase of stat that makes you better then others. Way, I will add, that discourage social life, because training alone is safer and easier then with others.

After this changes, training will be much easier. My point is to not make it to easy. So, exception for self hitting. Still once per day. And fighting and sparing with others as original suggestion for turn-based combat.
Każdy ma swój punkt widzenia, ale nie każdy z niego coś widzi.
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Doug R.
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby Doug R. » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:05 pm

Seriously, if a player is going to be dedicated enough to lock their character away for years and actually manage to have them train once an hour, and after all that time of not being engaged at all in society, still come back and play that character, then the more power to them. Almost no one will be that dedicated. I can't even remember to spar once a day, much less 8 times. I think the player's interest would drop very quickly. And if it doesn't, so what? If John can spawn a super dooper fighter right out of the gate, why take away Bob's ability to do the same thing through intense training? It would still be far more efficient to simply abandon a weak character and make more hoping to spawn strong if that's a player's motivation, than engage in a ridiculous level of sustained button clicking over a long period of time.

Self hitting is orders of magnitude more useful for suicide, and will be used for that the vast majority of the time. I really think this is a non-issue.
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Chroma Key
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby Chroma Key » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:15 pm

I feel like I need to say something as it was my example that sparked this.
The character I mentioned IS a loner. This is a man who spent 30+ IG years walking to find wood on a huge continent without a map. Alone. It would be very him to pull a stunt like that (at the expense of my nerves).
I did say I wouldn't undertake this practice extensively, and I don't think anyone would commonly do this, either. I didn't have a stand when I asked the question, but now I do think that it's not an issue. I now feel bad about sort of shadowing a great idea/muddying the water, though.
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby Greek » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:40 pm

Moving idea to accepted, but discussion can be continued.
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby JsWill » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:14 pm

YAY! *Dances* Greek you're awesome and thank you Catwill for the idea, first suggestion that I've ever got moved to accepted! *Dances*
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Re: Turn-based combat

Postby playerslayer666 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:28 am

if we are going to do this could we also do something where one player can "protect" another player, thus getting hit, and allowing them to hit in response? so far it looks like this is going to punish those dumb enough to use weaker toons to fight back, while not allowing their friends to do anything about it other than maybe drag him or the enemy away.

also the protected character could not be hit until the protector is dead/dragged away. (new thread should be started to discuss this)

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