Different animal system

[Sicofonte]

For sure, this would be rejected or ignored. But I hope some part of this idea would serve in the future to avoid, for example, 200 hawks (i.e. carnivore animal) lurking around in a place without any kind of food (not even cantrians).


For the common "I hate changes no matter if they are good for me or not just because, period!" players: all this are technical aspects of the implementation of a different animal system that would work the same as the current one at eyes of the players. So just shut up if you find it too complex, the complexity of this is something concerning only the programmers of Cantr.

For the rest of the people: this is an open, unfinished suggestion, with aspects left undefined. Feel free of correcting or adding anything (but try to avoid non-constructive moanings).



Species attributes

Each specie have:
- SIZE: tiny (0), small (1), medium (2), big (3), large(4).
- DIET: herbivore, carnivore, omnivore.
- AGRESSIVENESS: low (-1), medium (0), high (+1).
- FEEDING_NEED: a real number, the percentage of its size in food that the animal needs daily.
- HERD: loner (0), small (1), large (2) [maybe this is too realistic, for pack-attacks (several wolfs hunting down a cow), so I don't consider it below]
- MAX_HEALTH, ATTACK_BASE, BIRTH_RATE, MAX_AGE and/or whatever parameters in the current system (I don't know them althoug I have asked for them in the ProgD).

In each location and road, each species have:
- AMOUNT (integer): how much animals are there.
- HEALTH (integer): average of herd, or just the health of the woundest one.
- HUNGER (0.0 - 1.0): the same as with characters, a percentage, but for each species as a whole instead of each individual.
- STRESS (0.0 - 1.0): similar the the last one, it grows when that species is hunted, and goes down when not.


Animals feeding

Each day, each species will need AMOUNT*FEEDING_NEED*SIZE "food units".

- Herbivores will eat only vegetable food.
- Omnivores will eat vegetable food if available, and will try to hunt if they do not get enough food.
- Carnivores will always hunt.

Local vegetable food outcome

And each location will produce each day FREE_SLOTS*AMOUNT_OF_VEGETABLE_RESOURCES vegetable food units.

Animals hunting/fighting

Herbivore animals do not attack any others (unless deffending).

The targets of the attacks (of omnivore and carnivore animals) for feeding depends on the size of both (attacker and prey) and agressiveness of the attacking animal:
* PREY_SIZE <= (HUNTER_SIZE + HUNTER_AGRESSIVENESS) * (1 + HUNGER)

Cantrians (characters) will have also SIZE (medium?) so they can be preys of the animals. Big/agressive animals will always be ready to attack cantrians (if nothing easier is at reach) but smaller/peaceful animals will do it only if hunger puts the screws on them.


Animals demographics

Processed once a day.

Migration

The amount of animals that migrate (go into road populations) depends on the HUNGER and the STRESS.
Animals can stay on road (and never go to a location) it there are good conditions there.

Birth rate

It depends on the HUNGER, the STRESS, the AMOUNT and the base BIRTH_RATE of the species.
Places with bad life conditions do not incitate the reproduction.

Mortality by hunger

The amount of animals that die due to hunger depends on the HUNGER value.

Mortality by age

Fixed (by each species), or maybe depending also on the STRESS.



Testing of the system

One you have finished the first instance of this design, you program it in a local machine, with a small part of the BD (a pair of regions), with all the species you want to try, and you run the system continuously (without ticks/turns). Characters sustainable hunting can be simuled without players.
If the populations reach some stability, the system is ok.

If the populations get out of balance (let's say, hundreds of scarabs and hawks dominating whole regions, or species becoming extinct without any apparent reason), then the system is broke and the parameters (the base ratios of whatever) must be adjusted.

And finally you could add this to Cantr harmless.

[T-shirt]

Very nice idea and perfect for an animal dependency simulation, but totally worthless for a society simulator. Animals are either a thread, a practise target or a resource. Keep it simple, so staff energy can be focused on making Cantr a nice and playable society simulator.

[Doug R.]

I didn't look at the formulas intensely, but overall I like it. It includes all of the fixes that need to be implemented by making them dependent on the direct environment as opposed to global formula that may or may not work well for any given situation.

Animals can stay on road (and never go to a location) it there are good conditions there.

As there are no resources on the roads, only carnivores and omnivores could live there. I suspect in most instances, as long as there are herbivores migrating, roads would be a more ideal environment for them than locations (less hunting), meaning carnivores and omnivores would collect on the roads and outside of locations (but that's not really unrealistic).

[Sicofonte]

Animals can stay on road (and never go to a location) it there are good conditions there.

As there are no resources on the roads, only carnivores and omnivores could live there. I suspect in most instances, as long as there are herbivores migrating, roads would be a more ideal environment for them than locations (less hunting), meaning carnivores and omnivores would collect on the roads and outside of locations (but that's not really unrealistic).

-nods- I see... so the migration in that system should be redesigned. But I left that to others (or to the next weekend).



I think as you, T-shirt.
(thanks for the "nice" )

My own idea about animals is to change them internally into (mobile) resources, leaving the interface as it is, but with very very more simple implementation (and no lag!)
But that suggestion was totally ignored.

The main staff in Cantr do think (or at least it seems) that animals simulation must be there. Because. So I suggest another animals simulation, better I think than the current one.


Currently we have one of the most active staff members 100% dedicated to the animals incoherence issue, trying to make work a totally broke system.

I look for any alternative: more complex, less complex, similar, or different at all, anything....

I hope someone somewhere will do something at last.

[Doug R.]

Currently we have one of the most active staff members 100% dedicated to the animals incoherence issue, trying to make work a totally broke system.

That's what I signed on for, specificly. If this job didn't need to be done, I wouldn't be on staff, so don't cite freeing up my time to do something else as a reason to fix the system

[Sicofonte]

Ouch...

[Reindeer^]

Animals are already wise enough. They migrate and attack people etc... This won´t make this game any better society simulator.
If this all will be implemented it will make the lag even worse.

Very nice idea and perfect for an animal dependency simulation, but totally worthless for a society simulator. Animals are either a thread, a practise target or a resource. Keep it simple, so staff energy can be focused on making Cantr a nice and playable society simulator.

I agree with T-shirt.

But I hope some part of this idea would serve in the future to avoid, for example, 200 hawks (i.e. carnivore animal) lurking around in a place without any kind of food (not even cantrians).

What do hawks eat? Mouses, rats and other small mammals. Is there any of those in Cantr?

[Sicofonte]

Animals are already wise enough. They migrate and attack people etc...

Active does not mean wise.

This won´t make this game any better society simulator.

I agree.
Please, read what I wrote above before trying to answer.

My own idea about animals is to change them internally into (mobile) resources, leaving the interface as it is, but with very very more simple implementation (and no lag!)

In simpler words:
I don't like any kind of animal simulation in Cantr.
The suggestion that I like more:
http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13056

If this all will be implemented it will make the lag even worse.

Wrong. The computational effort of the equations above are minimal, and the workload of the BD queries would be rather smaller than the current system. Lag would be far far less than current one with medium and high populations sizes.
I am a Computer Sciences Engineer, specialist in complex systems optimization. I do know what I am speaking about. And you?

What do hawks eat? Mouses, rats and other small mammals. Is there any of those in Cantr?

You forgot the small birds.
Small mammals in Cantr: lemmings, rabbits.
Small birds: pigeons.

[N-Aldwitch]

So just shut up if you find it too complex

This isn't a very smart way to gain support for an idea.

If it's crap, we'll say so. What ever you say won't stop us. We're the community, after all.


edits:


Besides, what does this bring to Cantr? More complexity. I know you said for people like myself not to pipe up, but screw you.

This is a society simulator... not a fricken animal survival/evolution simulator.

Don't like it?

GO PLAY SIM SAFARI.

[Sicofonte]

This is a society simulator... not a fricken animal survival/evolution simulator.

But.
We.
Already.
Have.
An.
Animal.
Survival.
Simulator.

And it doesn't work.

N-Aldwich, you are another of the people that should keep quiet.

It seems nobody told you that it is better to be quiet and seem that you are stupid, than to talk and show that you are stupid


What I mean when I wrote...
"all this are technical aspects of the implementation of a different animal system that would work the same as the current one at eyes of the players"
is that the player community won't appreciate any cahnge on the system (except for the absence of incoherence once the system would get tunned)

Do you speak English?


What I mean when I wrote...
"the complexity of this is something concerning only the programmers of Cantr"
is that only programmers would be in trouble with this. Are you a Cantr programmer?. No. Be nice and shut up.

[N-Aldwitch]

This is a society simulator... not a fricken animal survival/evolution simulator.

But.
We.
Already.
Have.
An.
Animal.
Survival.
Simulator.

Correct. We have one. But we ARENT one. Can you see the difference?

N-Aldwich, you are another of the people that should keep quiet.

What, because I represent the large group of people who know your idea is flawed and wrong? Is that why you want me quiet?

It seems nobody told you that it is better to be quiet and seem that you are stupid, than to talk and show that you are stupid

Anyone who disagrees with this topic will be told they're stupid. Nice tactic, though abrasive, goes to show who the stupid one is.

the player community won't appreciate any cahnge on the system

Hey, slow down dickhead. The player community are the ones who play the game. Not the PHP server.
I wanna know who this idea benefits more. The PHP server (he/she/it gets something to read in his/her spare time) or the players. Definitely not the players, you already said that. So the server. Sweet!

Do you speak English?

Nope, you caught me out.

is that only programmes would be in trouble with this. Are you a Cantr programmer?

Ima programmer..

No. Be nice and shut up.

Hypocrits make jesus cry. And me. So you be nice. And shut up.

I hope I cleared everything up here.

[Sicofonte]

Leaving aside the issue about your low IQ and your ADD...

Could you state, little demon, why you don't like the suggestion?


You said "it is complex for the players".
But it is not complex for the players.

[sem]

Firstly, you don't specify how animal hunting works beyond selection of targets. For this to be programmed you'd need a tighter spec for animals eating each other. Presumably they'd provide the same amount of meat as if a player hunted them, but how would this be shared around the meat eaters in a location?

Secondly, if raw meat is left lying around (by characters) why not let animals scavenge some (doesn't need to be visible, just built in as part of the rot).

Finally (for now), what happens in locations that don't have vegetable resources? It looks as though this system leaves them with just omnivores, carnivores and characters feeding off each other.

[Pie]

well, that is how it is in real life... up in them mountains, with no vegitation... there aren't any animals.

I'm not sure if I support this, mainly becaus I don't quite understand the gravity of what Sicofonte is saying, but dang people are getting hot around the coller about it.

[Jur Schagen]

Implementing this would take programming resources that we don't have. There's plenty of good ideas all over, but no capacity to implement them.