Vehicle Change: Road Accesibility

[Doug R.]

Thanks for putting yourself out there to get lynched Wichy. Not a lot of people would do that. It shows real character.

(I'm serious)

[The Sociologist]

Vehicle - current - proposed
--------------------------------------
bike - path - path
bike cart - path - path
rickshaw - path - path
tandem bike - path - path
tricycle - path - path
small wooden cart - path - path

dirt motorcycle - path - path
road motorcycle - paved road - paved road

jeep - path - path
pickup - path - sand road
small pickup - path - path
small tractor - sand road - sand road
tractor - sand road - paved road (if we consider it as a tractor trailer NOT a farm tractor)

mini van - sand road - sand road
small van - sand road - sand road
van - sand road - paved road

caddie - sand road - paved road
limousine - sand road - paved road
passenger car - sand road - sand road
small sportscar - sand road - paved road
stationcar - sand road - sand road

bus - sand road - paved road

Well, I've tried to plough my way through this very long thread and frankly I don't see what the big fuss is about. OK, vans need paved roads and so the MacGregors will be freaking out. There are a few other similar cases, but surely not many. None of my characters has ever built a vehicle bigger than a tandem bike since I don't consider them worthwhile. Thus my principal character sits right on top of an oil supply and the rest could not care less.

By the way, this is the same MacGregor who was decidedly unsympathetic when I went on a rant about hunting and the food supply a while back. He wrote:

"Whatever happened to solving problems in characterly, and taking the challenges with stride? Any strategy player is familiar with the concept of contigency--not nagging and complaining for supernatural intervention."
http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7740&start=0



So as you can see, the players are reacting on behalf of their characters, just as I did quite openly in that particular thread. "You can't please all of the people all of the time" is putting it mildly.

Finally, I support most efforts to make more and different resources more widely tradeable. There was at one point even an argument for making vehicles require some kind of petroleum ("gas" to Americans). People can't say they want to see just more stone for roads, instead of oil. How does that help trading? If you want an alternative to oil, then how about a concrete road? That would need what? Mud and lime crushed from limestone. Or something similar.

By the way, the reason why New Xanth has never completed its oil derrick is that until recently nobody has ever bothered to trade for it. I remember once sending Costigan all the way to Dory with a part load of oil and they simply weren't interested. Same all round.

On the balancing, I would however raise this: Pickups tend to be hardy vehicles - all of them. I'd suspect anyone who built a pickup expected it to be hardy and so you may be penalizing such people unfairly. Just perhaps, you want to give a pickup the benefit of the doubt, but make it require fancier resources in future, aluminium and whatnot.

[disclaimer: none of my characters owns a pickup]

[saztronic]

By the way, the reason why New Xanth has never completed its oil derrick is that until recently nobody has ever bothered to trade for it. I remember once sending Costigan all the way to Dory with a part load of oil and they simply weren't interested. Same all round.

Dory is interested in oil now. We're the ones that just traded for it recently.

On the balancing, I would however raise this: Pickups tend to be hardy vehicles - all of them. I'd suspect anyone who built a pickup expected it to be hardy and so you may be penalizing such people unfairly. Just perhaps, you want to give a pickup the benefit of the doubt, but make it require fancier resources in future, aluminium and whatnot.

[disclaimer: none of my characters owns a pickup]

I agree with this, and made the point earlier.

[disclaimer: one of my characters does own a pickup. it took 20 Cantr years to make. literally. make this change, and you are hurting the very people you're ostensibly trying to encourage -- the ones who make long-range plans, take risks, innovate, and get people to work together. why would i do that again in future? why make a quarry, for example, if someone in RD is just going to decide down the line that they're too handy and cut their output in half? no thanks.]

[Nixit]

I think Wichita said he wasn't going to go forward with it? Maybe put it into Rejected?

[Marian]

quote="The Sociologist"]People can't say they want to see just more stone for roads, instead of oil. How does that help trading? [/quote]

Like I said in an earlier post, I wish oil was used for more things, but first it has to be in at least a few more places. There's not going to suddenly be a bunch of trade when you've got like one out of the way town on an entire continent with a suddenly important resource. All that's going to happen is a few people are going to sit on it and hoard it, with a bunch of restrictive laws to keep anybody else from getting any for themselves. In a lot of places I bet it'll be more likely to grind trade to a halt than help it.

(And I bet there are people right now making plans to do this, or rush over to get oil before any new laws get added, even though there's no way their chars can know about this thread...)

Anyway, if more oil isn't going to be added, then taking it away from paves roads is the only reasonable compromise I've seen so far. (And a good one, too. IMHO that's more likely to encourage people to improve roads than the change to vehicles, since about 99% or towns don't even have those vehicles and won't be effected anyway. An actual practical way to make walking faster would be a lot more of an inspiration for most of the towns my chars are in, anyway.)

[tiddy ogg]

[quote="The Sociologist"]frankly I don't see what the big fuss is about.[/quote]
The fuss is about projects requiring a lot of resources which have been started, Primarily Pieter's bus, but there are others, which it's pointless pursuing. I can quite understand that, from the char's pov especially. Surely, even in Cantr, a car is able to drive a road one day and not expect that the return journey is impossible, no matter what gods he believe control his universe?

[Mykey]

But as a player as I've stated before I don't like this proposed change and see it just as an attempt to balance the manufacturing tables as opposed to balancing the game

We asked ourselves why players do not bother to pave roads. What could we do to provide a motivation to build roads.

I`m going to go out on a limb here. I think they are too busy trying to keep tools,weapons and protection in working order, It`s the rot... On top of that alot of people like to war, myself included. If it wasnt for all the time needed to just stay on guard, we would have more time for things like roads. I could be wrong, but I`m sure this is a big part of it.

I think the best motivation to build roads, would be as this thread suggest, along with a believeable decay system, and "encouraging" warfare a little more couldn`t hurt. I think everytime Prog D wants to slow the game down, we should just De-nerf the combat system a little more, better than amneisha imo.

[Phalynx]

I`m going to go out on a limb here. I think they are too busy trying to keep tools,weapons and protection in working order, It`s the rot... On top of that alot of people like to war, myself included. If it wasnt for all the time needed to just stay on guard, we would have more time for things like roads. I could be wrong, but I`m sure this is a big part of it.

I think the best motivation to build roads, would be as this thread suggest, along with a believeable decay system, and "encouraging" warfare a little more couldn`t hurt. I think everytime Prog D wants to slow the game down, we should just De-nerf the combat system a little more, better than amneisha imo.

Half right hald wrong.. It's true the romans would never have got anywhere if they had to dedicate an entire day every week just to repairing tools and weapons. Repairs slow everything down and if the intention was to make olbies circulate tools and weapons I don't think so. only yesterday a fifty year old man keeled over from starvation dropping ten tools and weapons all crumbling with a total of 250 hours of repairs needed!

But I don't thing there is a need for a change in the combat system, Mykey if you want to exclusively kill and murder find another game...

[Mykey]

I`m going to go out on a limb here. I think they are too busy trying to keep tools,weapons and protection in working order, It`s the rot... On top of that alot of people like to war, myself included. If it wasnt for all the time needed to just stay on guard, we would have more time for things like roads. I could be wrong, but I`m sure this is a big part of it.

I think the best motivation to build roads, would be as this thread suggest, along with a believeable decay system, and "encouraging" warfare a little more couldn`t hurt. I think everytime Prog D wants to slow the game down, we should just De-nerf the combat system a little more, better than amneisha imo.

Half right hald wrong.. It's true the romans would never have got anywhere if they had to dedicate an entire day every week just to repairing tools and weapons. Repairs slow everything down and if the intention was to make olbies circulate tools and weapons I don't think so. only yesterday a fifty year old man keeled over from starvation dropping ten tools and weapons all crumbling with a total of 250 hours of repairs needed!

But I don't thing there is a need for a change in the combat system, Mykey if you want to exclusively kill and murder find another game...

Ok, you dont give up on letting me know this, Phalynx. What`s wrong with a serial killer or 2? I`m not going for 15 here. When I use to play I could hit everyone wthout a prob once a day, guess what with the dragging advantage to war for me was hard. If I can even get in one this time around it will be next to impossible imo. Maybe I`m wrong. But please quit telling me to find a new game because I want to kill 40 characters with one of mine. Alot of people have done it and your suggestions for my playing preferences are getting annoying. So in short kiss my ass.... De-nerfing the combat system is not an end-all to fun gameplay, I think its quite the opposite. Your entitled to your opinion but stop pointing to the door. I know where it is. If the "right" people wanted me gone I would be. Regardless of what that front page says I still contend, warfare is essential to social evolution.

Have you seen Siom,Blojt,Brunoi or quillanoi,Olip forest, Phalynx? Some of the political systems, I had a big hand in originally creating in one form or another. I also lay claim to the first constitution. So just to let you know, I`m not bloddthirsty. Well perhaps a little but i dont feel I over do it.

[Sunni Daez]

This topic is about the Vehicle change and not warfare... There is nothing wrong with having warfare in cantr...but lets discuss it a different thread....


There has been so much said about this subject, that all I can add is just a repeat... but... I have no problem with road change ..except the fact that the larger vehicles are not made to much yet...and changing the roads in the initial manor, will only stop the few that would build these... changing speed on roads makes more sense.

I have a BIG truck IRL.. That truck will go down a path.. through a field...over a deer.... almost anywhere I ask her to go... it may be a very slow ride...but she goes!

[T-shirt]

If paths and tracks are forbidden for motorised vehicles, should highways and expressways not likewise be forbidden for non-motorised vehicles?

[Mykey]

If paths and tracks are forbidden for motorised vehicles, should highways and expressways not likewise be forbidden for non-motorised vehicles?

I do not follow the logic here.... It would make sense if they were congested with motorized traffic, But they arnt and likely will never be.

[The Sociologist]

If paths and tracks are forbidden for motorised vehicles, should highways and expressways not likewise be forbidden for non-motorised vehicles?

I do not follow the logic here.... It would make sense if they were congested with motorized traffic, But they arnt and likely will never be.

Agreed, that doesn't make sense. Preventing bikes from using a road, if it ever happens, would be an in-game policing issue, not a programming issue.

[The Sociologist]

I think the best motivation to build roads, would be as this thread suggest, along with a believeable decay system, and "encouraging" warfare a little more couldn`t hurt. I think everytime Prog D wants to slow the game down, we should just De-nerf the combat system a little more, better than amneisha imo.

I don't consider this at all off-topic or beside the point. Mykey is simply pointing out where ProgD and RD resources and thought should be employed. I agree absolutely. Like the word "de-nerf" too.

Anyhow, this proposed vehicle change most likely won't happen. The "Powers That Be" will intervene and what we'll get instead is a whole bunch of things to make life slower and more boring for the peasants. After all, we can't let the peasants achieve anything, can we? They might get ideas. Can't have that.

[Surly]

Because K is the best place, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever. (Even though I have no presence there anymore )
So... ner

Get your arse out of my department..