Cantr II Discussion Forum

Was there a Traitor? Just curious.

Oh, and... Pie was the Zombie Master. So even though a ZM would never endanger themselves, it seems to have worked out this time. Doing the unexpected and all that, I guess.

OMG!!!

you know, we had all kind of trouble on our end, with me being gone, and killing HF before we outnumberd everyone (saz cept saying that there were still 8 people, I thought there were 7! I was still in ukrain, and kinda tired by the time I was able to get on the internet) AoM being the very smart person he is, and this being my first time as Zombie Master, and a whole bunch of other things!

The only, ONLY thing that I think that saved us was that AoM started guessing a little bit at the end. with all of the heated discution going on it was easy for me to hide in the background!

and there are a few people I'd like to thank for makeing this situation possible. N-aldwich, for modding, everyone who was lynched, for giving us the oprotunity to say the word "lynched", and for being good sports about it, and everyone who died at night or at the end when we one, for having such large brainz for us to feast apon!
but just to say, MOST OF THE CREDIT, goes to saz, for picking up the ball when I couldn't! nice working!

There wasn't a Traitor. It was just to get you guys guessing and suspecting each other to balance the game, as you guys had 11 people, against 2 (and kind of 3, but it doesn't really count )

Fools.

If you'd followed AoMs advice, there'd been a chance.

I knew Bowser was good, as for some reason, N-Aldwitch responded to my request before he posted that I had been killed by zombies... Lucky I didn't decide to blurt it out...

I don't understand - you knew Pie was some kind of evil player. There was no doubt as to that - so why go guessing over the other one on the last day? Why not just go for pie?

Heh, I noticed that too, jumping the gun.. Everyone knew and agreed Pie was a zombie and was the next to go.

Last time I voted for someone I kne wwas evil (racetyme), I was told I was wrong to do so and told we Needed to get the Zombie Master. I didn't listen to AoM the other times and decided to try and find the master the last time which turned out to be pie anyways.

I am far from an expert at this game and I rarely folow the logic of who is who and why.

Yeah, it was really weird. If not for AoM making that out-of-left-field parting shot about Bowser being the Zombie Master, I think Evil would have been taken down. I couldn't have convinced Sparkle and Nakranoth to vote they way they did without that claim. Pie would have been next one lynched, and then Sparkle's and Bowser's animosity for me would have made it likely that I'd be next.

So AoM: what exactly led you to conclude that Bowser was ZM?

AoM worked out that Pie was a zombie of some kind, and that Racetyme was evil, but probably not a zombie.

You should have listened the day before the last day when he said get pie, not Racetyme.

But why the hell, after getting Racetyme, did you not go for pie?

Sure, AoM pointed the finger, but it was only a finger pointing. You knew for certain Pie was evil. Whatsmore, it was clear he wasn't a necromancer (you'd got him already) So he must be a Zombie, possible even the ZM - so WHY did you not vote him?

I was reading this game, just wanting to scream at you all... Fools!

I'm not sure what made AoM point at Bowser during the last few posts he was able to make. Whatever it was, a bit of rational thought would lead you to believe what you already knew.

Anyhow - I'm about to write up the next game. Cold War Werewolves...

formerly known as hf wrote:AoM worked out that Pie was a zombie of some kind, and that Racetyme was evil, but probably not a zombie.

You should have listened the day before the last day when he said get pie, not Racetyme.

But why the hell, after getting Racetyme, did you not go for pie?

Sure, AoM pointed the finger, but it was only a finger pointing. You knew for certain Pie was evil. Whatsmore, it was clear he wasn't a necromancer (you'd got him already) So he must be a Zombie, possible even the ZM - so WHY did you not vote him?

I was reading this game, just wanting to scream at you all... Fools!

I'm not sure what made AoM point at Bowser during the last few posts he was able to make. Whatever it was, a bit of rational thought would lead you to believe what you already knew.

Anyhow - I'm about to write up the next game. Cold War Werewolves...

Well, yeah, I get it or whatever. I knew Pie was evil, and I knew he was the Zombie Master, more certainly than anybody else could have known it.

Because I was all EVIL and everything, you know? So I wasn't trying to direct votes toward Pie, I was trying to direct them away from him. Somewhat successfully, I might add, in both the cases of Racetyme and Bowser. In the former case, I had to do it by "innocently" pretending not to get AoM's logic. In the latter case, I was helped inestimably by AoM's mistake. It's that mistake I was trying to get a little better feel for, since it really surprised me.

But I have to admit -- I was sure there was a Traitor out there regardless. I just couldn't figure out how we were getting away with all that if there wasn't.

Pie as a ZM doesn't make logical sense... the one thing I didn't count on.

Pie shouldn't have claimed hero, he should have had saztronic do it. That's what confused me and made me think that you had to go for someone other than Pie on the last day, because I figured he was the normal zombie by outing himself way early.

So that's why I felt the need to take a parting shot.

Unfortunately, Bowser said it best in that my accusation of him was the only one that I had nothing but gut instinct on, and my occasionally-correct-evil-finder was off on that one. Props to saz for staying chill in that situation, though I did know that if it wasn't Bowser, it was definitely Saz. (Sparkle just couldn't be evil when she came in day 2, and Nakranoth had been playing very good, in that he was voting the correct way, right away.)

Knowing that I'd be killed, and knowing that I was a coroner, that made every night kill a 50-50 shot that the game would be over anyways if we didn't get the zombie king. (Because a new zombie would arise and force parity.)

The game really went the wrong way when I was unable to convince people of the need to vote Pie over Racetyme when we knew both were evil. I don't know why Bowser and Sparkle didn't see the logic in what I was saying, but Bowser was pinging evil to me anyway at the time, so I felt like I didn't need to preach to someone who'd never listen. I'd been seer-cleared, and I'd been the village tactician from day 1, so I'm disappointed to find that they were good and that they were still banking their hopes that I was a traitor somehow.

Anyways, I'm at least happy that we were close to figuring it all out. Though I'm going to start just lynching all the silent people if the Evil players decide it's okay to go on vacation during the game.

AoM wrote: I'd been seer-cleared, and I'd been the village tactician from day 1, so I'm disappointed to find that they were good and that they were still banking their hopes that I was a traitor somehow.

Is it possible you were the traitor and cleared by the seer incorrectly?

If I was going to lose, it wasn't because the traitor gained our trust and just told me what to do.

My issue was as I have said before... You told me that if fator "X" happened, I should vote Racetyme, factor "X" happened and then you said no,no,no now we have to vote pie... Then after that lynch I was redy to vote pie, but you then said no,no,no we have to find the zombie master, don't vote pie.

So each time I wanted to vote the "known" evil, you tried to get me to vote someone else contrary to your last prediction. I know this is an evolving game and your strategy changes with each lynch, but it just rubbed me the wrong way.

But in hindsight do you see what I was saying and why?

I'm entitled to change my mind if I begin to see things clearer. As you say, it is an evolving game.

On the day that I was saying we should vote Racetyme if deadboy turns up evil, that was before we knew about Pie. At that point in time, we were assuming he was the Hero he claimed he was. Once HF died and it became clear that BOTH Racetyme and Pie were KNOWN EVILS, it became a matter of determining which one was more likely to be a zombie.

My point for not voting racetyme was that with one evil already revealed (Pie), it would be a very bad call for a zombie to counterclaim a hunter (seer-counters are important enough to warrant a zombie-counter, but a zombie shouldn't counter a weak role like the hunter/bazooka). However, an aux-evil, like a sorceror or traitor, would be fulfilling their role perfectly by wasting another lynch with a successful counter. Racetyme played his role as he should have, but we practically gave evil the game by wasting a second lynch to kill the guy who was logically an aux evil when we could have killed the max evil.

(Side note: Nakranoth should have been casting doubt on Pie's validity as a hero. Nakranoth was a hero, and for Pie to be one as well, that would mean the game had included it's max roles of heroes, which would have been very unlikely... 1 commando, 1 bazooka, 1 seer, 1 coroner, 1 medic, and at least one guaranteed soldier is already six goods, then assume 3 evils, and that gives nine roles, in what turned out to be a 10 person game. That actually makes having 2 heroes next to impossible if you assume a balanced scenario, which from a gamer's perspective, you sorta have to.)

Personally, I am more likely to trust someone who changes their minds a lot without provocation, because that's a sign of someone who is struggling with the lack of information inherant in the game. (Evil doesn't struggle, as it already has most of the info it needs when determining who to vote.)

Also, to believe that I was a traitor would mean that there were either two aux evils along with two max evils (4 evils, which was very unlikely in a 10 player game) or, in the case of three evils, you would have to assume that (since I could not be a zombie due to seer-clearing) that BOTH Pie and Racetyme were zombies, and that they had BOTH countered on the same day, thus guaranteeing a loss if they were both quick-lynched (ie: it would never happen, because no evil team in their right minds would completely reveal everyone on their team to the public.)

So either way you look at it, I was very likely not to be the traitor. I'll admit, I was playing hardball by lying and claiming soldier, but I wanted to use some reverse psychology by making evil believe that I really was just a soldier, thus they would be tempted to find juicier targets and I would get away with protecting a pro-Good role while at the same time bring what experience I could to the village's aid. Sadly, it wasn't enough. But there's always next game.

Just one thing though... I wasn't hero role... I was in fact a regular soldier. If I'd been a hero, I'd have saved Seer when Pie was supposed to. Which would have effectively counter-claimed Pie and saved the seer simultaneously.

*edit* Damn it! I WAS hero and didn't remember... Could have sworn I was just soldier... That would have swung the game in a completely diffrent direction... Sorry y'all.

On the last round, I strongly suspected Saz as opposed to Bowser, but was in a bind for votes... one way the person I voed for died... the other, Pie would determine it. Pie was zombie of sorts, so that would'a left us dead no matter what.

Oh, and ironically enough, knowing that I was soldier let me know that you were Coroner, and I played it as though I Could be a power role to help keep you out the fire.

Nakranoth wrote:On the last round, I strongly suspected Saz as opposed to Bowser, but was in a bind for votes... one way the person I voed for died... the other, Pie would determine it. Pie was zombie of sorts, so that would'a left us dead no matter what.

Actually, you could have voted for me. With you and Bowser voting for me, and Bowser having voted first, in the tie between myself and Bowser I would have been the one to go down. Pie really couldn't have reentered the voting at that point without giving everything away.

Nakranoth wrote:*edit* Damn it! I WAS hero and didn't remember... Could have sworn I was just soldier... That would have swung the game in a completely diffrent direction... Sorry y'all.

Arghh...

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