Cantr II Discussion Forum

Has it been quit from the useful tools for collecting timber? And if so, Why?

Thanks!

Wilmer B.

A vote amongst the RD was taken, and the result was that the stone axe was removed from the timber. Some members of the RD believed that it would unbalance the axe, as timber is supposed to be a higher tech level.

Talapus wrote:A vote amongst the RD was taken, and the result was that the stone axe was removed from the timber. Some members of the RD believed that it would unbalance the axe, as timber is supposed to be a higher tech level.

But... 1 of my charries have collected 30k of timber with a stone axe, and was at 80% with a project to finish his log cabin... Haven't you affected my RP's charrie life with OOC question? I guess: YES!



Wilmer B.

Wilmer Bordonado wrote:

Talapus wrote:A vote amongst the RD was taken, and the result was that the stone axe was removed from the timber. Some members of the RD believed that it would unbalance the axe, as timber is supposed to be a higher tech level.

But... 1 of my charries have collected 30k of timber with a stone axe, and was at 80% with a project to finish his log cabin... Haven't you affected my RP's charrie life with OOC question? I guess: YES!



Wilmer B.

Wilmer Bordonado wrote:Yes, I've seen and answered it. Still do not comprehend why changing things all the time. There's no way to make a plan in Cantreality at all! Yesterday spits and other machines were allowed at some vehicles; today no!. I've just worked yesterday on a project of collecting timber... today, no!

Why doing it so complicated?! I'm just getting bored of it, everytime nothing could be planning into this game because it's OOC changes occuring all the time!

Wilmer B.

Your character has now out that his puny stone axe can no longerfell whole trees. Now you will have to either make a different home, or find/borrow/steal a real axe.

This change was made in coordination with several other changes that will affect the game, so in fact, at least on this occasion, there IS a plan.

The fire pit issue was things not being properly implemented from the start. It makes no sense and upsets the game balance to allow bicycles to have fire pits on them, so we changed how they were coded. We are taking steps to insure that any new implentations are coded correctly so we wll not have to go back and fix things. We'd like a stable cantreality as well and are trying to make it so.

I think this is unfair. I didn't vote since I only work on clothing, but there's a difference between putting firepits on bicycles and felling a tree with a stone axe. The latter can be done, it only takes a longer time. So instead of removing the stone axe totally from the gathering options, just make the efficiency of a steel axe so much better in comparison that it's worth making if the resources are available. In real life people use what they have. They won't travel across the world chasing different coloured stones to make a substance they've never heard of.

A stone axe - of stone and sinew - wouldn't survive long felling whole trees. It could be done, but you'd have to constantly be reapiring it.

It would be good to see a stone axe for timber once use-related damage is introduced, but this change makes a lot of sense to me.

Removing the stone axe was a game balance change.

We know it can be done in real life. Long houses and other primitive structures were made from whole trees long before iron or steel were discovered. I've felled a tree with a stone axe I made with my own two hands. We're sorry it inconvieneced your character, but there are still in game ways for you to gather your timber, you will be able to solve this chalenge in game.

It's a pity notice couldn't have been given though, or existing projects be allowed to continue.

Agar wrote:Removing the stone axe was a game balance change.

We know it can be done in real life. Long houses and other primitive structures were made from whole trees long before iron or steel were discovered. I've felled a tree with a stone axe I made with my own two hands. We're sorry it inconvieneced your character, but there are still in game ways for you to gather your timber, you will be able to solve this chalenge in game.

Respectfully & sincerely, Agar, I will try to get my anger off of this topic and show the objective reasons of it.

And I'll concentrate my thoughts on my charrie who has a stone axe and he's in a place where there are timber. The other charries knows from now that timber can't be collected with a stone axe. That's clear.

Let's call my frustrated charrie as "Injustin Timberfake" He has born in a city, he has travelled a lot, he has returned to that city... But he finds he's a great expert on foresting, so he has decided to go to the woods to be in his moods... Well, he seems to be an adventurer.

So he found a nice place to stay. Then he found there are wood and "timber". "Wow", he said, "Let's see what's that thing of timber". So he discovered that timber could be collected at an average of xxx grams per day. "Do I have a stone axe?", he wondered, "Dunno, what a pity", he answered himself. So he spent the little quantity of stone he has in his inventory, collect some sinew from the animals there, and gathered some wood just to make one. And some days of manufacturing, too. "This will be useful for me to collect wood or even timber, it's an useful tool", he wrongfully thought.

"Well, should I work on a wooden hut or on a log cabin?", he wondered. "Wooden are nice and faster to make, but log cabins are flamboyant and they go better with my spirit", he decided. "I'll dedicate my whole time to make that log cabin a reality", he sentenced. "It will be a nice building here where people can come and save their items while working. It will become a nice hostel and I will be its owner".

He worked hard on that, considering stone axe was the lower collecting rate. Everytime he got timber, he put it in the project. He asked for collaboration of other inhabitants, but no one seemed to be interested. So he went into it totally alone.

He'd collected about 30k of timber with the frindly stone axe.

One day, a strange message was prompt in his log: "you don't have the proper tool to work on that project". "Wow, this old stone axe was destroyed, I'll have to do another one", he thought. But no. Stone axes have been dissappeared from the world of timber forever.

"Oh, no, what I shall done now?", he screamed in silence... "OK, it does not matter, I am young and brave and strong and I will make myself an axe, just to finish my project", he thought. "So I need... let's see... hematities... well... limestone... oh... coal... ouch... ¿primitive smelting furnace?... thing's goes complicated... ¿AN-VIL? ¿What's that?"
And he started to became numb.

From my player's point of view:

1) I'd like Cantr's being balanced, but I think those changes couldn't affect characters so much. So if you implemented that, in my humble opinion, you should have to convert the "stone axe" in the new lower rate collecting tool for all those who were collecting timber, at the time it was implemented. That would be fair.
2) If not, the removal of all those "unbalanced items" should be equal for all the players. What I mean, for instance: spits which have been already built inside building or boats should be magically removed, to return to a real balanced game.
3) A little note informing the players about future re-balancing of the game could have been implemented. i.e. Timber: collected at a rate of xxx with an axe; collected at a rate of xxx with a 3/4 axe; collected at a rate of xxx with a stone axe (currently on reconsideration of Resources Dept.)
4) In my humble opinion, changes should be implemented to solve character's playabilities, not to complicate them.
5) In my humble opinion, no active player neither his/her characters should be affected by changes according the balance of the game. And if they were truly necessary, RD should think on implementing palliatives for those who were into game, not for those who ¿will? come.

Thanks again for your understanding,

Wilmer B.

EDIT : just to correct mistakes.

Wilmer Bordonado wrote:1) I'd like Cantr's being balanced, but I think those changes couldn't affect characters so much. So if you implemented that, in my humble opinion, you should have to convert the "stone axe" in the new lower rate collecting tool for all those who were collecting timber, at the time it was implemented. That would be fair.
2) If not, the removal of all those "unbalanced items" should be equal for all the players. What I mean, for instance: spits which have been already built inside building or boats should be magically removed, to return to a real balanced game.
3) A little note informing the players about future re-balancing of the game could have been implemented. i.e. Timber: collected at a rate of xxx with an axe; collected at a rate of xxx with a 3/4 axe; collected at a rate of xxx with a stone axe (currently on reconsideration of Resources Dept.)
4) In my humble opinion, changes should be implemented to solve character's playabilities, not to complicate them.
5) In my humble opinion, no active player neither his/her characters should be affected by changes according the balance of the game. And if they were truly necessary, RD should think on implementing palliatives for those who were into game, not for those who ¿will? come.

RD in general, and quite specifically, it's chair, Wichita, are getting rather tired and trying to patch up things that were implemented seemingly without rhyme or reason. Resting, item rot, vehicles, healing, technology levels ... all the things we hear from the player that they don't like, we often and at length talk about what can be done to make things better. There are many things that should have been done at some point, in some other way, but they weren't, and so we have to consider what is best for the game over all, how it will affect older characters, newspawns, and characters not yet spawned, and try to act in the best interests of the game.

Sorry your character is left out of timber collection for the time being, but for timber to be what it needs to be in the coming future, primitives with stone axe tools have to be excluded.

In regards to #2, removal of other unfair items, I believe that is policy, and if other unfair items have not yet been removed, I would have to assume that was an oversight and will be corrected soon. RD, at least my level of access to it, does not have the ability to remove things, that is ProgD, the ones you see getting bodies off bikes.

#3 - Aspects of stone and wood are currently being considered for overall game balance of possible future projects. There are so many things RD considers in every change, a note letting the player base know that we're thinking about things for every change would end up eating 10 of your cantr minutes deleting them from your character page. In most cases, the player base is informed of a pending change, but it is not required and merely a courtesy. I do apologise your character did not have more time to prepare themselves for this change.

#4 - This change did indeed solve characters playabilities for several types of industrial specialtists and is planned to create opprotunities for new ones. We can't solve the playabilities of all characters with every change, sometimes some characters lose somethings so that others gain.

#5 - How can any change NOT affect any active characters? A change with no affect at all is no change at all.

Thank you for approaching this in a rational light. I understand you are upset, and I apologise for your distress, but it was nessecary.

Agar wrote:RD in general, and quite specifically, it's chair, Wichita, are getting rather tired and trying to patch up things that were implemented seemingly without rhyme or reason. Resting, item rot, vehicles, healing, technology levels ... all the things we hear from the player that they don't like, we often and at length talk about what can be done to make things better. There are many things that should have been done at some point, in some other way, but they weren't, and so we have to consider what is best for the game over all, how it will affect older characters, newspawns, and characters not yet spawned, and try to act in the best interests of the game.

Sorry your character is left out of timber collection for the time being, but for timber to be what it needs to be in the coming future, primitives with stone axe tools have to be excluded.

I'm not questioning RD decissions about timber and stone axe. I'm questioning the way the change was implemented. As you can read in my point numer one, I am suggesting a palliative for all those characters who were working on timber with a stone axe: convert the stone axe of those characters into a 3/4 axe, so you don't affect their playability at all. As I explained, my character's built an stone axe because it was said in the resources screen into game that it was useful for collecting timber. He was working on a project of collecting timber with that stone axe by the time RD implemented the change. PD can check that out, if they want. So, why affecting so much my charrie, when there's a solution with which change can be implemented and my playability does not be affected at all?

Agar wrote:In regards to #2, removal of other unfair items, I believe that is policy, and if other unfair items have not yet been removed, I would have to assume that was an oversight and will be corrected soon. RD, at least my level of access to it, does not have the ability to remove things, that is ProgD, the ones you see getting bodies off bikes.

As a Cantr player rather than a Staff Member, I do not care that things to be done depends of RD, PD, ProgD, LD, etc. There are still buildings were there are spits inside. And so? Does not affected the "game's balance"? Of course it does! So why caring about timber instead of spits? Before doing any new change, old changes should be totally completed, don't you think so?

Agar wrote:#3 - Aspects of stone and wood are currently being considered for overall game balance of possible future projects. There are so many things RD considers in every change, a note letting the player base know that we're thinking about things for every change would end up eating 10 of your cantr minutes deleting them from your character page. In most cases, the player base is informed of a pending change, but it is not required and merely a courtesy. I do apologise your character did not have more time to prepare themselves for this change.

Forgive me, I haven't explained it very well. There's a "resource screen" into game, where it's detailed the ways a resource is gathered by diferent tools and the collecting rate for each of them.
I think it was very easy to insert a phrase beside the "stone axe": "currently under reconsideration of Resources Dept."

Agar wrote:#4 - This change did indeed solve characters playabilities for several types of industrial specialtists and is planned to create opprotunities for new ones. We can't solve the playabilities of all characters with every change, sometimes some characters lose somethings so that others gain.

What kind of opportunity can add with a quit?
If you add a new collecting tool made of steel or some other hard-to-get material, an set a huge collection rate for that, then you're giving more chances to elite characters.
But quitting a stone axe as a collector tool? The only thing RD is doing with that is difficulting newspawns' life.

Agar wrote:#5 - How can any change NOT affect any active characters? A change with no affect at all is no change at all.

Please re-read point number 1.
Of course changes affect characters. But a change that turns a character's plan from upside down isn't a change in itself, but an abuse.

Agar wrote:Thank you for approaching this in a rational light. I understand you are upset, and I apologise for your distress, but it was nessecary.

Of course it's not a personal discussion Agar, so please don't take it that way. I'm simple so annoyed with RD policies on changes that I've thought on the possibility of not playing this game anymore.

Wilmer B.

As you can read in my point numer one, I am suggesting a palliative for all those characters who were working on timber with a stone axe: convert the stone axe of those characters into a 3/4 axe, so you don't affect their playability at all.

Erm...I think having a person's stone axe magically turning into a steel one would be pretty unrealistic and disruptive in itself. At least with the way things are now you can use your imagination, pretend all the softwood trees have been cut down or something, but people still living in the Stone Age instantly getting steel weapons would be harder to explain away.

But quitting a stone axe as a collector tool? The only thing RD is doing with that is difficulting newspawns' life.

Stone axes still work perfectly fine for collecting wood. That alone makes life much easier for newspawns everywhere. (Most of who have absolutely no use for timber anyway.)

Stone cleavers and axes are still the biggest help to newspawns since the fire pit stopped needing a shovel, and they've only recently been shown up by wooden carts. I'm just greatful we have them at all.

I realize your char's done a lot of work...but if they were really that close to finishing, couldn't this be solved IG just by asking someone with a real axe to finish the project?

Marian wrote:

As you can read in my point numer one, I am suggesting a palliative for all those characters who were working on timber with a stone axe: convert the stone axe of those characters into a 3/4 axe, so you don't affect their playability at all.

Erm...I think having a person's stone axe magically turning into a steel one would be pretty unrealistic and disruptive in itself. At least with the way things are now you can use your imagination, pretend all the softwood trees have been cut down or something, but people still living in the Stone Age instantly getting steel weapons would be harder to explain away.

Hmm... it depends. Trying to build a spit inside a building and not being allowed because it can't be built inside buildings and vehicles, but then entering into a neighboor building and finding there three spits working at full speed, is pretty unrealistic and disruptive too. And unfair, don't you think so?
I just only proposed the convertion to a 3/4 axe because in my personal case I can prove my character has build a stone axe in the intention of collecting timber, and he did that routine so far (he collected almost 30k of it) but one day the world magically change, and the tool lost its natural attributes.
And yes, I've been exploiting my imagination so hard these last days just to figure out how OOC gods' whim can affect my actions, but it has became a little difficult since I visited these site
By the way, My charrie is the bold one at the last picture, dropping his last tree in Cantr World.

Marian wrote:

But quitting a stone axe as a collector tool? The only thing RD is doing with that is difficulting newspawns' life.

Stone axes still work perfectly fine for collecting wood. That alone makes life much easier for newspawns everywhere. (Most of who have absolutely no use for timber anyway.)

Yes, but my charrie does not need wood at all, he needs timber. Perhaps he was an iluminated one who find out a reason for collecting timber with a stone axe for a -30 years old character.

Marian wrote:I realize your char's done a lot of work...but if they were really that close to finishing, couldn't this be solved IG just by asking someone with a real axe to finish the project?

I think you have a english-island-POV, and I don't blame you. But Injustin Timberfake is in a middle of a wood where there's no buildings at all -mine was going to be the first one- so there's no possibility of build up an anvil, which is a must for constructing an axe... And... I am sharing the life with a number of symphatic newspawn and another pair of no-understandable foreigners, what makes the hope of getting and axe borrowed simply an utopia.

Thanks for writing, anyway. Reading and answering has became a therapeutic remedy for the insane Injustin Timberfake.

Wilmer B.

But Injustin Timberfake is in a middle of a wood where there's no buildings at all -mine was going to be the first one- so there's no possibility of build up an anvil, which is a must for constructing an axe...

Well, like I said I'm sorry for all the work you lost, but this kind of relates to:

Agar wrote:Sorry your character is left out of timber collection for the time being, but for timber to be what it needs to be in the coming future, primitives with stone axe tools have to be excluded.

From that, and from what other people have said (and what I've seen in game), timber is meant to be an important resource for advanced, organized towns...sort of like the key resource in Cantr's Industrial Revolution.

'Primitives' don't have a use for it any more than my Omeo char has a use for limestone and cotton, with the exception of the log cabin...which was apparently an oversight to begin with and has now been fixed. Screwing over a couple of chars in the shorterm, yes, but being better for the game in the long run. (And even when things are made easier for newspawns I see people complaining...the wooden cart and fire pits for instance...so I kind of feel for RD since it seems like a no-win situation no matter what they do.)

This is the entry for Cantr II at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantr

Cantr II is a browser-based massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) which has the goal of simulating society. For that reason, the whole social world is developed by the players and there are no non-player characters. There is no prewritten history, no fixed economic or political system, no programmed money or predefined roles. You decide what your character is like and what his or her goals are, and your challenge is to play your character consistently and reach the goals.
Your character will be dependent on the characters around him or her, and you try to reach your goals while playing your character's personality consistently. A society is formed with powerful and powerless people and different economic, political and military structures, all of which can change in an instant.

Is the blue sentece a premonition?

I think this discussion is reaching to an endless point. Some of you believe that RD can change whatever they want without taking care of affecting characters or not; in a certain way, I think there's another way of implementing changes just to make them work without affecting character's past/present/future working time.
But it's unprobably we're leading to a higher point in this matter. So, for me it's over.
When I started to play Cantr II I thought my characters were free to do what they want, everytime they follow the rules, particularly the CR one.
Nowadays I found it's my must to go to these forums just to investigate if I am right collecting grapes with a bone knife, or if it has been already quit from the useful tools.
Like someone's said, I've lost something in the way



Wilmer B.