Let's talk plans to economize Cantr!

[Robert Shmeashter]

Well, in the Webzine, the creator of Cantr talked about his efforts to economize Quillanoi. He pushed the CR to try to establish Quillanoi as what he meant the whole of Cantr to be. Because of his efforts, the Quii was introduced and strengthened.

But, as he says, there are still a lot of places where there is no currency, and only "communist-like community service" as Jos puts it. Maybe there is something missing in this game, as in terms of programming, that subconsciously makes it bend this way? Or maybe there is something missing in how the players play that makes it so? Although the point of this is not to insult, slander, or criticize the programmers of players of Cantr, we must still reconsider ourselves in order to simulate the world better.

One aspect that is missing, I believe, is the "bored" factor. In real life, if you were forced to farm potatoes everyday, eat potatoes everyday, wouldn't you get bored? For in the real world, there is not only the need to feed, but the need for leisure. In Earth, it was the desire for leisure, somthing other than survival, that led humans to create harmonious civilizations. Even after having invented potato harvestors, cars, bikes, and the like, this basic concept of civilization is not covered in this game. If your character—not you—had a problem with being bored, he would want something in return for his effort. Such kind of pay might be the first step for economics to establish itself in Cantr.

What do you think?

[Nixit]

Well, first off, discussing this issue OOC is not the way to go about this.

But, a lot of towns are so small that they don't need a currency system, bartering works fine. It's really just up to the characters if they think it's needed. I think Lake Village was attempting it as well. Or something similar.

[The Sociologist]

In Earth, it was the desire for leisure, somthing other than survival, that led humans to create harmonious civilizations.

How very "New Age". Is this what they teach in colleges now? Anyhow, in my opinion civilizations have never really been harmonious and were usually based on the "desire for" screwing the peasants. If you try to screw the peasants in Cantr, however, they show a distinct tendency to drop dead, so the only way to get anything done is to collect them together in something resembling a kibbutz.

But, a lot of towns are so small that they don't need a currency system, bartering works fine.

Currencies would also fail in the real world if everyone lived in constant fear that: (a) the entire staff of the Federal Reserve would fall asleep at their jobs, never to reawaken until they day they dropped dead; (b) a passing hobo would pick up their keys, thereby gaining control of the mint and the entire federal currency system.

Seriously, imagine waking up one morning and they're interviewing some guy with blood-red eyes and a three-day growth on just how amazingly lucky he was to have been passing by the very moment Alan Greenspan fell down dead, and what are his new plans for the dollar? Oh and how does he feel about the federal building in comparison to his cardboard box under the subway....

[glitterdown]

I'm not terribly aware of what the in-game "costs" are for coinage. Meaning how long it takes to make, in terms of resources and time. I know 800g of potatoes are made in a day, it's easily verified, but how long does 1 coin take?

The advantage of bills and coinage in real life, is that it is easy to carry around alot more wealth. However in-game, there's no difference between carrying around 5g and 15000g (in-town at least). And for traders, they're basically forced to use large vehicles (cars, boats or tandem bikes). Which carry enough more than a normal person can, that weight again does not become an issue. Add to this the fact that vehicles also keep your wealth safe (since B&E is honestly only something that happens in completely slumbering or abandonned locations, due to the trouble with actually succeeding unnoticed (a prime goal of all crime)), and if someone robs a traider by dragging him off into a building and killing him, he'd be screwed without a vehicle just as easily (and he can even trade from inside his vehicle, protecting him from anything but actual violence).

Lastly, there are supreme advantages to iron/steel as a currency already:
1. they naturally stack (you don't have your inventory filled with
a lump of iron
a lump of iron
a lump of iron
etc...
2. Everyone wants them (iron/steel is AMAZINGLY liquid and wanted nearly everywhere, while coins are hard to even coerce people to use in the cities where they're minted).
3. Iron/Steel has a (constant) value and very little risk. Why would I want to risk putting my wealth into coins when I could have iron/steel?

For these reasons, I think coinage is a failing proposal here in Cantr. And I don't think this is a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with a Barter-based economy. The only problems happen when people strangle iron/steel selfishly (Seatown Forest), and then you just end up with an incredibly screwed up region due to the elevated conflict over "currency."

[kinvoya]

We should use those coins to make charm bracelets and necklaces. They would probably be a lot more valuable (and in demand) than the currency itself.

[glitterdown]

One last point. Do coins have a weight? I know most tools do, and I know that clothing does not. Considering that clothing at least has some innate value (and it doesn't stack, just like coins) and is WEIGHTLESS to boot, it's better currency than coins anyway. But still inferior to iron/steel in most ways (although weightlessness is a heavy advantage).

[Surly]

THe difference between coinage and clothing, however, is the unique name for coinage. Therefore, it is possible to have a simple gold coin minted 'Quii' represent 10000g of iron or 10g. With clothing, the ability of others to make it themselves undermines its value as far as banks are concerned...

[Just A Bill]

In other words the currency has to be backed. That means someone, or better lots of people will trade the coin for the "value" that it claims to have. That means you need a government (or buisness) that you know will be there tomorrow, and has the resources to buy back its coins. There are only a few places in Cantr that have that kind of stablity.

Next if it is to be of any use in trade, it must be accepted in multiple locations. Most of those few governments with the stability do not have multiple locations with varied resources which could be traded. Accepting a coin in exchange for resources is to risk that no one will accept the coin when you want resource. The gain you get by accepting a coin is a savings in weight. As most characters don't own much more than they can carry the gains do not outweigh the risks.

My prediction is that the best agent to introduce coinage would be a business that has multiple locations. Still I think with the level of wealth that the average cantrarian has even this is not likely.

Lastly I had heard mentioned that the most common government is quasi socialist. I think most governments would be best catagorized as "Tribal". As most of the locations have few people there it is natural. Most small assets are privately held, but buildings, machines ect are used by whomever needs it and people kind of look out for each other with a sort of benign government "running things".

[Robert Shmeashter]

How very "New Age". Is this what they teach in colleges now?

Well, I'm only a 12-year-old, not in college yet So maybe I'm not the one that should be proposing radical changes to this game.

[Joshuamonkey]

Maybe, every island could have one government. We just need some group to be successful enough and the people would need to work together. Coins could then be used. Maybe even a bank account.

[The Sociologist]

Well, I'm only a 12-year-old, not in college yet So maybe I'm not the one that should be proposing radical changes to this game.

Well, you certainly did focus correctly on a very valid issue, so propose away!

[The Sociologist]

I think most governments would be best catagorized as "Tribal". As most of the locations have few people there it is natural.

Yes, I would say that the more technologically advanced towns have made it to "tribal". For example, the MacGregors. Lad in its prime might be said to resembly something like the rule of Shaka Zulu.

Really bizarre, however, are those towns with supposed "councils" and "free enterprise", since they resemble nothing which has ever existed. They do not resemble the modern western world at all since the scale is far too small. In fact their whole nature is vaguely CR breachy since they are based on models which would not have evolved naturally in such conditions.

Given that these are always towns where food is easily to be had off the ground, they can perhaps best be regarded as pre-tribal "tropical paradise" hunter-gatherer communities with bizarre and illogical pretensions to grandeur--eg Drojf, Seatown, Dory, etc.

At the moment, the best way to actually get anything achieved is to incorporate an entire town as effectively a single enterprise. This can be done:
(a) Via "clans", which plug into our human tendency to sacrifice our own individuality for the sake of acceptance into an "in group";
(b) Via a primitive and idealistic socialism, which plugs into much the same thing, but in a somewhat more rationalistic fashion, eg early 19th Century communal settlements or the later kibbutz type which was based on them.

Interesting also are multi-town corporations based on some kind of promise to pay or to distribute shares, of which MWS inc is the most sophisticated.

[Nick]

In fact their whole nature is vaguely CR breachy since they are based on models which would not have evolved naturally in such conditions.

I've always thought this.
Even (maybe especially, actually) Quillanoi (Sorry, Jos...)

[creepyguyinblack]

You forgot putting people to work through either the blade or through rampant nationalism. These may push some people to rebel, but if you've got a loyal force, anyone who opposes you won't have a chance as long as you have manufacturing on your side.
I really enjoy Quillanoi though, all the laws allow one to use them to their benefit if they're smart and use other's hard work to your gain.

[Nick]

I really enjoy Quillanoi though, all the laws allow one to use them to their benefit if they're smart and use other's hard work to your gain.

But it seems no one bothers to read the mere two pages or so of laws.
Get to know them, and you'll be 'pimping the system'.