Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

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Cogliostro
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Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby Cogliostro » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:01 pm

We have combat based on weapons that are indestructible and never fail.

What would Cantr be like if for the purpose of combat, weapons were seen more as consumables?
For example, two characters doing battle might go through (break) their swords, and have to resort to daggers and bang-nagh's until finally one of them is defeated and has to surrender, having no more working weapons left.
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Henkie
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Re: Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby Henkie » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:14 pm

The bulk-suggester strikes again haha, nice going Cogli, keeps the spirit alive! :D

There is already something going on about the deterioration of and repair of tools and weapons, so that is part one, weapons are already in the process of becoming expendable. Also, the repairing will probably someday start costing recourses.

That is quite impossible I think. If 2 people are in combat, yes, they could break a sword, in reality.. That almost never happens. Even if we wanted to implement this, how should we do it? Only if attacking cantrians? Or as well with animals? Only certain animals? Besides, that would also be depended on skill level... I would never let my sword break :s

Also there is the problem of the bagh-nakhs. If someone has to kill someone by attacking once per day, and the other has for instance a kite shield. That would take for ever...

Once again, a funny suggestion, but no.
Cogliostro
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Re: Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby Cogliostro » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:27 pm

Yeah, only cantrians vs cantrians.

It something very different from just repair. Think of the weapons themselves as consumables you need to effect the result of killing somebody. So, it would seem kind of strange at first, that you use up 2 crossbows and 1 sword to kill a character, but do we have any lack of strange things in Cantr? They're it's charming idiosyncracies.

More importantly, consider what that would do to the economy and the problem of too many characters being wiped out by roaming bands of pirates. If the pirates used up all their claymores and crossbows literally within the first one or two attacks they carried out, that would create a natural barrier against wantonly genocide, yet still permit tragedy to strike, especially if somebody really planned for it and had a specific target they wanted to attack.

Such consumable weapons would trigger a pandemic of arsenal-production worldwide, reinvigorating the economy, because old weapons, especially the all-powerful crossbows and claymores will quickly be used up by those engaged in battles. People will start to puzzle over which weapons are most EFFICIENT to produce and use for their region, considering the balance of how complex it is to make and how effective it is in battle, considering too that all weapons get used up if you fight with them.

I see two options about how they'd get used up. One is radical, but a happy thought for admins, they would be totally used up and disappear. Two, I guess more to my liking, is if the weapons would just become unusuable, until a lengthy process of repair is undertaken with them. Something on the order of 10 days, maybe, to fix your sword and make it useable in a fight again. This is after just one or two strikes with it, you understand!

We would consider Cantrian fights more as epic heroic battles that occur in that instant when players exchange blows, and less as something trying to model individual swings.
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Henkie
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Re: Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby Henkie » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:37 pm

I disagree, I see it to be (atleast this suggestion) a strange implecation that would cause great annoyance and specially, it's very unrealistic :s

This is a situation with a very low change of happening, otherwise weapons would become worth almost nothing, which would not feed the "economy", if there is such a thing to speak of, and therefor contradict your own statements...

Yes it probably would, but it would also greatly enhance the worth of iron and steel, which in many villages are already extremely hard to come by. Also with the new amount of animal attack the loss of a sword to a rogue bandit can be life-threatening. I do see the positive spin here, battleaxes and crossbows would become worth less and will be less used, causing a more diverse array of weaponuse, but the cost to this is way way way too high.

10 days for repairing a sword? Did you fall of a chair? lol

Once again, I understand the suggestion but since fighting is already slow-paced.. This would cause a single fight to last for over a cantr year, if not much longer, and make protecting an upcoming town very expensive. The positive effect of this suggestion is great, I agree, but the negative spins here are just far far too big.
Cogliostro
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Re: Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby Cogliostro » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:39 pm

Why would what I suggested increase the duration of fights, Henkie?
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SekoETC
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Re: Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby SekoETC » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:39 pm

It should be a rare event. Maybe weapons made by an expert would be less likely to break than those made by someone awkward. That would give value to craftsmanship. Items could have a partially hidden durability rating that would be reduced at each hit. When it reached 0 or negative, the weapon would break. Things made by an awkward weaponsmith would be described as crude, while ones made by an expert would be described as fine. Or maybe awkward people could make average swords by using the same time they spend now, but making crude swords by spending the same time an efficient person would use. That way people in a hurry could make shoddy weapons, because they could assume they're only going to need them for a few blows anyway. And weapons that have a small percentage of their original "hit points" left could be described as battered or chipped, so people would know this weapon has been used and is more likely to crumble.
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Henkie
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Re: Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby Henkie » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:39 pm

Cogliostro wrote:Why would what I suggested increase the duration of fights, Henkie?


Because your weapons are destroyed...


That sounds better Seko, +1
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NostalgicMelody7
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Re: Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby NostalgicMelody7 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:41 pm

What about throwable weapons being stackable? Like 15 throwing stars in a stack, and when you use one it either falls on the ground, is broken, or gets stuck to the other character and lands in their inventory?
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SekoETC
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Re: Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby SekoETC » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:44 pm

That would be good assuming fast throwers could throw several before the other person has time to retaliate. If you could only throw one in a day, the damage would be so low that no one would use them.
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Cogliostro
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Re: Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby Cogliostro » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:46 pm

Henkie, once your sword is broken, you go to your sidearm, etc.. Under the "consumable weapons" regime it would become commonplace for scary people to walk around covered in weapons head to toe. No comparison to how it is now, a person with a single crossbow or sword in hand.

You must understand that this is a drastic change, and only makes sense as a total change in thinking about "what weapons are". Before we had them as simple damage catalysts. Under the new system, the time put into creating a weapon is literally what kills your enemy, and only a limited number of the enemy. So, arsenals become essential, if you have a lot of enemies.

It is utterly unrealistic, in that, in real life swords and crossbows don't break that fast, but firstly, that doesn't matter if the idea would be as fun as you and I imagine, and secondly, even in the real world swords become stuck in the dead enemy, crossbows jam, et cetera.
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Henkie
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Re: Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby Henkie » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:52 pm

Then still the comparison to the combat-system and the slow-paced idea of the game is compromised.

I understand your mindset and do apreciate it, but than I am much more inclined to agree with Seko, which would also give cause to carry with more weapons, yet keeps the balance much more intact.

And if crossbows jam it's repaired in 2 minutes, swords are pulled out of animals in less than 10 seconds.. Etc. etc.

I generally don't like this idea.. coglio, it will completely disorientate the cantr-world and make cause for huge shifts in worth of resources and items. The positive effect does not by far live up to this.
Cogliostro
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Re: Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby Cogliostro » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:57 pm

Certainly it needs a lot of thought, I'm not suggesting that this needs to go into effect tomorrow, without any consideration for how players have traditionally used and related to weapons. The resource and time requirements could be tweaked, if staff think some variation of this would work.

Let's avoid nerfing the idea down to just an occasional breakage effect, because that would be a meaningless addition that's more a nod toward dubious realism than anything to do with creating really fun gameplay. For everyone.
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Henkie
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Re: Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby Henkie » Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:03 pm

Well to be honest, I like the current system, and I would not like a change in this direction. The upcoming repair-cost-resources-system will fix some of the things named here. Possible we could then make weapons deteriorate much faster or something in that direction.
Cogliostro
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Re: Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby Cogliostro » Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:15 pm

For information, yours truly was there, crying and screaming, and banging my head, when repairs for items were introduced, and everything bad I bemoaned then has since come true. There are deep underlying reasons to oppose repairs-cost-resources, but it's sad that only a few people are willing to consider what adding complexity like this does to player interest in the game.

It shouldn't be repair-costs-resources, but straight up use-costs-the-item, which players would learn to understand and appreciate. They will never accept repair-costs-resources the same way, it will only make repairing more cumbersome than players face already.
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SekoETC
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Re: Different angle on combat - perishable weapons.

Postby SekoETC » Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:19 pm

Items shouldn't last forever, but some items can last a hundred years if well tended. Repairs should be maintenance rather than magic that makes old into new, and items should have limited endurance, even though it might exceed the lifetime of some characters.
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