Change in tiredness

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Yang
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Change in tiredness

Postby Yang » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:06 pm

Right now people work and work, all the time, and they are not tired at all. Its because even if work tires a little bit (3 or something for every hour) they get rest even more. So my suggestion is that, to prevent resting when doing something else. If you dont do anything you rest like normal now. Or when you are resting as project you get extra resting from furniture. This way people will need to RP more and finally go to sleep. Now they say they are tired and need to sleep and go to work. Or work few years without single break. With this change we would have need for your bed where you can go to sleep, or even your place where you can sleep in peace.
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psychowico
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Re: Change in tiredness

Postby psychowico » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:58 pm

This is.. interesting. But I guess many people will have something against it. BTW. I think we could associate "tiredness from work" level with our character skill in this job.

And I think this should be much slower that in our real life.. Maybe in "average" conditionals three days of works should tired character to something about 50%? We must remember that any tiredness will reduce our work speed and this will be reason why characters will want to sleep.
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curious

Re: Change in tiredness

Postby curious » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:44 pm

For some reason, I always just thought that in any given Cantr hour that my chars worked, they would take breaks during it.

This would, of course, work in principle, and add to rp for me, but would there be (as well as the noted skill level) differences for the types of work that wouldn't necessarily induce tiredness? For instance, if my char is swilling honey and water round in a bucket, this would not be the same things as hammering away at an anvil. I guess not all work entails exertion.
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psychowico
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Re: Change in tiredness

Postby psychowico » Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:51 pm

For instance, if my char is swilling honey and water round in a bucket, this would not be the same things as hammering away at an anvil

Yes, I think this should look in this way, but diffrence shouldn't be huge. In our life standard of work are 8 hour (in my country) and most of works have it on this same level.
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Yang
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Re: Change in tiredness

Postby Yang » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:21 pm

Now one hour of work make 3% of tiredness. 8x3% make 24%. Making 50% a barrier for tiredness would keep workers to work, even if they are not logging at all for long time.
Also if we would go to bed when we go to bed in RL and go back to work when we wake up would keep us fit in good shape. Or we can take another pattern.

But making difference in tiredness depending on job is also very interesting. Fishing is for many people so relaxing thing. Collecting flowers, or even cooking is for other something that relax them, and let them rest. Also you are more tired if something goes wrong and you are trying and it dont work. So making it all dependable of your ability to do it is great idea. And we can figure out that if you are master in this you like doing this and it dont tire you so hard, like other thing you dont like.

Conclusion:
1 Make work tire people, make them need resting
2 Better you are in that work, less you are tired
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Chroma Key
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Re: Change in tiredness

Postby Chroma Key » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:19 am

Yang wrote:2 Better you are in that work, less you are tired


Even though it sounds logical, I don't quite like it. If you are awkward at something, you are already screwed as any project will take you about twice as long.
Add more tiredness to that, and a simple one day project will turn into a burden for those less skilled.
God forbid if you ever wanted to have practise/fun and spar in the meantime.
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psychowico
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Re: Change in tiredness

Postby psychowico » Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:33 am

I don't quite like it. If you are awkward at something, you are already screwed as any project will take you about twice as long.
Add more tiredness to that, and a simple one day project will turn into a burden for those less skilled.
God forbid if you ever wanted to have practise/fun and spar in the meantime.


But is it really bad? It's normal that some people can make things that they are know how they should do and try avoid things that they do not know how. This can give our characters better impulse to cooperation and services trade.
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Doug R.
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Re: Change in tiredness

Postby Doug R. » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:37 pm

psychowico wrote:
I don't quite like it. If you are awkward at something, you are already screwed as any project will take you about twice as long.
Add more tiredness to that, and a simple one day project will turn into a burden for those less skilled.
God forbid if you ever wanted to have practise/fun and spar in the meantime.


But is it really bad? It's normal that some people can make things that they are know how they should do and try avoid things that they do not know how. This can give our characters better impulse to cooperation and services trade.


I tend to agree.
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Chroma Key
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Re: Change in tiredness

Postby Chroma Key » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:58 pm

It is bad if you are purely going on the norm - ie all towns are developed, you have no need to search for/cook food for yourself. In short - you have the choice.
This won't matter much to the above communities, trade seems to be widespread around there anyway.
However, there are smaller communities out there which are struggling with the basic things, and trade etc is damn near impossible (between genocides, hostility, piracy, extinction of animals (hint, hint! :) )and mere dire number of players/characters).
I am aware that I am talking about exceptions, but those will be affected far worse. I lost too many minor ethnicity chars to starvation, etc, I suppose.
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Re: Change in tiredness

Postby curious » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:07 pm

psychowico wrote:
I don't quite like it. If you are awkward at something, you are already screwed as any project will take you about twice as long.
Add more tiredness to that, and a simple one day project will turn into a burden for those less skilled.
God forbid if you ever wanted to have practise/fun and spar in the meantime.


But is it really bad? It's normal that some people can make things that they are know how they should do and try avoid things that they do not know how. This can give our characters better impulse to cooperation and services trade.

I think if this is going to be considered, it needs to be in light of some other changes then.
The increased prevalence of very simple tools and such would be necessary, as those who just found themselves against all odds to make something complicated without spending years on it, and in places where cooperation and other resources are difficult.

Imagine being in a remote place, and being bad at hunting cooking, and making machinery, and then doing worse due to excessive tiredness as a result of just trying to survive.

and [edit] Oops... kinda posted some of the same again... maybe.
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Re: Change in tiredness

Postby RedQueen.exe » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:09 pm

Yeah, I agree with Chroma. I have seen no evidence that cantrarians are rational, there aren't enough people to support a services market, and some chars are already screwed or blessed by having almost all expert/skilled or mostly awkward skills, and this will make it even harder for those caught on the low end of the bell curve to make anything of themselves.

Primarily though, cantrarians are not rational.
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psychowico
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Re: Change in tiredness

Postby psychowico » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:30 pm

But why we assume that any characte should have fair chance to survive etc.
It is natural that in simplest civilization people use most of their time to get food and get to better thing slow.

The increased prevalence of very simple tools and such would be necessary, as those who just found themselves against all odds to make something complicated without spending years on it, and in places where cooperation and other resources are difficult.


For me it is normal that for some "recluse" creating a car should be almost impossible - if he don't have before skill with this.
And if we speak about small communities.. I think when we get 3 random characters we should have something about 90% precent that one of them have random skill at least "average" level. So this wouldn't be so dangerous, rather give our better way to specialization.
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RedQueen.exe
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Re: Change in tiredness

Postby RedQueen.exe » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:54 pm

So, the other part of this, and the reason that cantrarians don't act the way that we think they rationally should: Incentives/disincentives only work well when they are salient.

Right now, the effects of skills are incredibly easy to ignore, not because they are not severe enough, but because those effects are mostly hidden from players and very easy for them to not think about. The only thing you see on the project initiation page is how long the project will take the average person, not how long it will take you relatively. The only way you will notice the effects is if you're paying attention, remember when you started a project, and then the next day remember when you started it and say "hey! I started this project 9 hours ago and it said it should take 8 and I'm not even near done yet!

Outside of that, the only way people know what the effects of the skill system are is if they read the wiki and all of the updates. I bet some novice players may think the times are more or less randomized. Even once you understand what effects they have, you're not going to remember the unique skill set combinations across 5-15 characters. You would have to check your character page every time you consider starting a certain type of project.

It is cognitively taxing to be checking and thinking about that all the time, so people are likely to simply ignore it instead. Until the effects of skills are made more obvious, giving them more equally non-obvious effects are probably not going to change the way that people act.
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Doug R.
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Re: Change in tiredness

Postby Doug R. » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:33 pm

I think that any further additions to the game that rely on skills in any way should be put on hold until the skills system is overhauled.
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Vega
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Re: Change in tiredness

Postby Vega » Fri Jan 27, 2012 7:36 pm

The most important thing I found against this idea (and the only one by now, I'm not thinking so much today) is that you can't leave and survive. I mean... You must leave the game for a short/medium period of time, as in holydays, maybe for a month. You put your account on leave and you put your char gathering food to not starve. Fine. You return after all that time and you found your char alive (if animals or people didn't kill him/her, okay.) If you implement this and people need to rest, you'll can't do this and you are going to depend of other people to feed you always and that sometimes doesn't work... :?

I think that, if you implement this at any way, people should be able of do anything else even at 100% of tiredness.
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