Walls and gates

Out-of-character discussion forum for players of Cantr II to discuss new ideas for the development of the Cantr II game.

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Doug R.
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Re: Walls and gates

Postby Doug R. » Thu May 20, 2010 12:21 pm

YugoStrikesBack wrote:For example, if you knew that one ambush (the first one) I helped launch on you was coming Doug, wouldn't you have reacted accordingly?


If I could detect it, yes, but you play much later than I do, so you could easily skirt this by launching your ambush when I'm offline. Also, the roads in the area we're discussing can be traversed in one hour, so this would be irrelevant. Finally, this would inspire more "tick camping," which is something we're trying to eliminate, not encourage.
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Re: Walls and gates

Postby YugoStrikesBack » Thu May 20, 2010 12:30 pm

Doug R. wrote:
If I could detect it, yes, but you play much later than I do, so you could easily skirt this by launching your ambush when I'm offline. Also, the roads in the area we're discussing can be traversed in one hour, so this would be irrelevant. Finally, this would inspire more "tick camping," which is something we're trying to eliminate, not encourage.



Aren't you all implementing real time travel? Furthermore, just because you would of been asleep doesn't mean the rest of your peeps would have been. The only way to prevent attacks I think is to allow fair warning on the roads, whether through a special building, item, or automatically allow it.

But hey, I'm just trying to help an obvious problem in the game dynamics. If you implement walls and gates, all I would have to do is figure out a way to sneak in, lock the gate behind me, kill anyone I want, and basically enslave the whole town without any chance of escape.... that is, if I wasn't such a nice guy.
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Re: Walls and gates

Postby returner » Thu May 20, 2010 12:33 pm

CrashBlizz wrote:
returner wrote:Regardless - for this to be implemented effectively, you need the ever-dreamy grid-system programmed in first.


Why???

use the existing road system. Just add an on/off switch to each exit (I realise its not that simple)


Hey, I said 'implemented effectively' not 'implemented'..
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Re: Walls and gates

Postby Doug R. » Thu May 20, 2010 12:39 pm

YugoStrikesBack wrote:Aren't you all implementing real time travel?


This is a much longer-term implementation and combat needs to be fixed much sooner than later.
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Re: Walls and gates

Postby YugoStrikesBack » Thu May 20, 2010 12:52 pm

Doug R. wrote:
YugoStrikesBack wrote:Aren't you all implementing real time travel?


This is a much longer-term implementation and combat needs to be fixed much sooner than later.


Like I said before, no matter what you do, if a person really wants to, they are gonna kill you. That second attack wasn't done with 2 people, it took a pretty good sized army (and some CRBing). Those are rare in Cantr.
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Re: Walls and gates

Postby returner » Thu May 20, 2010 4:17 pm

I am against Walls and Gates and I will try to express my reasons as concisely and quickly as possible, as it's southpark time woo.


Any implementation of walls and gates in any form would provide excessive and unbalanced power to the ones within them.

Already we see towns with lock'n'key buildings holding huge advantages over any potential attacker - especially against attackers on foot - provided there are not any sleepers.

For a successful and fair implementation, a grid system must be developed and the combat system must be re-written. When the combat system is re-written, it must take into account the possibility of this suggestion gaining merit.



At the end of the day, this isn't dungeons and dragons.. this isn't an RTS, or Age of Empires. Towns aren't definable sizes and thus you cannot put walls up without questioning how it is logical to do so.
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Re: Walls and gates

Postby CrashBlizz » Thu May 20, 2010 5:04 pm

returner wrote: Any implementation of walls and gates in any form would provide excessive and unbalanced power to the ones within them.


Not really, one suggestion is a road harbour type thing. Pirates don't have problems getting through harbours and with a little bit of something called RP gates wont be an issue either. You're right and it will stop large groups of well armed people simply riding into town though. Damn that unfair power shift...

returner wrote:Already we see towns with lock'n'key buildings holding huge advantages over any potential attacker - especially against attackers on foot - provided there are not any sleepers.


And yet towns are still, quite easily, destroyed, raided and ruined

returner wrote:For a successful and fair implementation, a grid system must be developed


Still not understanding the reasoning behind this...

returner wrote:At the end of the day, this isn't dungeons and dragons.. this isn't an RTS, or Age of Empires. Towns aren't definable sizes and thus you cannot put walls up without questioning how it is logical to do so.


First, since when is this game logical? Second, as said this isn't a hack and slash or RTS. Using gates will stop someone simply riding in and hitting everyone while his 4 friends do the same. It'll force RP and actual interaction between charries.

In my opinion doing something like this will bring cantr closer to real life as well as help sort the fighting system. Lots of real world city states that remind me of cantr towns had walls - Rome, Babylon, Athens, Troy.

Don't see the need for walls 'and' gates though.

(I did write a lot more to this and then the forum messed up and I lost it. I'm not spending another 15 mins typing it all again so this'll have to do)
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Re: Walls and gates

Postby returner » Mon May 24, 2010 3:13 am

Okay rather than take a general approach, I will identify key problems with the implementation. If you can ease these, I will support the idea.

1) Can walls/gates be destroyed? How? Crowbar? Advanced technology like siege weapons? If a wall/gate requires, say, just iron and wood, or just wood, and someone is in an area with no available iron.. how are they to build things to destroy the walls? The current system is fair and balanced in this regard.

2) What if the town is full of sleepers?

3) I want to get to Akypor. I am two towns away. There is only one road to Akypor and the middle town has a wall, and everyone is a sleeper.
How do I get to Akypor?
I can't.
There is a pirate raid in Akypor. I need to get there right now to save people. The town is full of sleepers and won't unlock the gate. How do I get there? How is this fair?

4) Town leader dies, newspawn takes keys. ENTIRE TOWN IS IMPRISONED, purely because of a failed mechanic within Cantr. How is this fair?

5) I am stuck in a locked, walled, gated city. I want to leave. How do I get out?
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Re: Walls and gates

Postby returner » Mon May 24, 2010 3:14 am

The biggest problem is this:

One person dies, an entire town is locked in.

It just takes two people (or one strong guy!) to drag the town leader inside, take the key, and control an entire town instantly. This goes against EVERYTHING us players have been working to fix re: the combat system.



Finally, if a series of towns have locked gates, land travel becomes impossible. This is utterly unfair and why this suggestion fails fundamentally. I completely disagree with it as other players will when they realise how ridiculous it is.
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Re: Walls and gates

Postby EchoMan » Mon May 24, 2010 6:26 am

returner wrote:Finally, if a series of towns have locked gates, land travel becomes impossible. This is utterly unfair and why this suggestion fails fundamentally. I completely disagree with it as other players will when they realise how ridiculous it is.

Doesn't have to be like that. You could arrive at the town gates and still see all other roads, as well as the option to try to enter the city.
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Re: Walls and gates

Postby returner » Mon May 24, 2010 7:38 am

So a town with multiple exits will have to build multiple gates? Or is there just one magical gate for all road exits? It all just sounds a bit far fetched and uncomfortable/not aesthetic to implement.
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Re: Walls and gates

Postby CrashBlizz » Mon May 24, 2010 8:18 am

returner wrote:
1) Can walls/gates be destroyed? How? Crowbar? Advanced technology like siege weapons? If a wall/gate requires, say, just iron and wood, or just wood, and someone is in an area with no available iron.. how are they to build things to destroy the walls? The current system is fair and balanced in this regard.


Yes, they will require some form of destruction in one way or another.

returner wrote:2) What if the town is full of sleepers?


Tough, live with it. Thats the fault players, not one of the feature.

returner wrote:3) I want to get to Akypor. I am two towns away. There is only one road to Akypor and the middle town has a wall, and everyone is a sleeper.
How do I get to Akypor?
I can't.
There is a pirate raid in Akypor. I need to get there right now to save people. The town is full of sleepers and won't unlock the gate. How do I get there? How is this fair?


In terms of it having a locked gate (I still don't see the need for walls): Thats something the people in the middle town should of thought of before they locked the place up. Could be sleeping, maybe their the ones causing the attack... Or are just happy to see it happen. Again, decision of the players to do that, not the fault of the feature. This open actual strategy to inter-town warfare apart from the now sole idea of 'hey joe, what time can you be awake tomorrow'

returner wrote:4) Town leader dies, newspawn takes keys. ENTIRE TOWN IS IMPRISONED, purely because of a failed mechanic within Cantr. How is this fair?


I think it should not be like a locked door, you need it to be open to go through even if you have the key (I mean we're talking about a huge town gate here, not one to someones garden). Therefore, in this case the entire town is imprisoned with the newspawn = goodbye newspawn. If the newspawn wants to leave he has to open the gate. (Also its called trust - share some damn keys people!)

returner wrote:5) I am stuck in a locked, walled, gated city. I want to leave. How do I get out?


...You asked or you don't. (surprise surprise, its a gate = sole purpose to stop people coming and going... :? )

returner wrote:So a town with multiple exits will have to build multiple gates?


Yes, one per road. You can have 5 roads coming into a town and decide, for diplomatic purposes, to compleetly shut one off. 'HA, those smelly Stone Knights will have to go through the desert form now on' Everyone now has to find a way round (or through). Or have everyone open and shut certain ones only in times of threat. The choice is yours.

returner wrote:The biggest problem is this:

One person dies, an entire town is locked in.

It just takes two people (or one strong guy!) to drag the town leader inside, take the key, and control an entire town instantly. This goes against EVERYTHING us players have been working to fix re: the combat system.


Again, I'm going to play the 'players own fault' card. If you have a gate and left it open and bad people came in and killed you then maybe you should of locked the gate. Or if you want a second solution, as I said before, share some keys - problem solved. If you want to leavethe entire towns defences with the head guard and he gets killed then its your own fault - your choice, your fault.

With all this said, Returner, you seem to be looking at this purely from your characters point of view and how it will inconvenience them. Not from whether or not it will improve gameplay. Might not be the case but thats just how it seems to me.


You could also, which will address most of the questions here, have like a draw bridge instead of a gate. difference = no lock. Anyone inside the town can operate it - it has more like a pully, cranky device thingy that draw bridges have (you've all seen the films!) rather than a key hole. However it would have to take two or three turns to open/close it - it'd be project based. Just a thought.

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Re: Walls and gates

Postby EchoMan » Mon May 24, 2010 8:23 am

returner wrote:So a town with multiple exits will have to build multiple gates? Or is there just one magical gate for all road exits? It all just sounds a bit far fetched and uncomfortable/not aesthetic to implement.

How did you come to that conclusion? All roads lead to the town gate. The town gate. :)
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Re: Walls and gates

Postby CrashBlizz » Mon May 24, 2010 8:27 am

I think different roads different gates. Not all roads go the same place and you should be able to allow travel one way and not the other.

Rome had several, whats Rome got that Kwaki hasn't? :D
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Re: Walls and gates

Postby returner » Mon May 24, 2010 10:28 am

CrashBlizz wrote:
returner wrote:2) What if the town is full of sleepers?


Tough, live with it. Thats the fault players, not one of the feature.

returner wrote:The biggest problem is this:

One person dies, an entire town is locked in.


Again, I'm going to play the 'players own fault' card.


On this ground, the suggestion should just be thrown out right now. You really shouldn't play that 'card'.

Hey, you know how the combat system sucks? You know how they're trying to fix it? That's the 'players own fault' too, for killing each other and doing pirate raids etcetera.
So blaming the players isn't good enough. Players ARE going to abuse it and it's going to cause a lot of strife, no matter what you say.
Staff won't implement something which is as disastrous as the current combat system just so they have to fix it and balance it later.. You need to actually answer or solve the question or I don't see it being implemented.

Yay, more abusable systems..
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