The "Modernisation" of Cantr

[wietse]

I dont agree to the last post,

the most important part for the players is that cantr is a fun (good) game, the society simulation part is an interesting research project for the designers and maybe long term players.

And anyway for a society simulation you need people (players). You only get players by making the game fun to play. So first of all you have a good game!

And i dont think cantr has gotten more realistic, it has only gotten more boring. I guess you could call boring realistic, depends on your view of life.

As for the roleplaying part i agree that getting and keeping older characters is essential for this. It is much more rewarding to talk to and build up relationships with players that dont die after 3 years. For this also the gameplay is essential to keep players hooked, not 'realism'.

(ps. i am not saying realism is bad, but it should enhance the gameplay, otherwise it shouldnt be implemented)

and of course cantr shouldn't be reset.....

[swymir]

The recent updates, definitly enhanced gameplay. It forced characters to rely on one another. Something that was missing from the game before. Societies just have to become more structured. I believe Lad was the best equipped to the changes, but the only thing that hurt them was the boatloads of dead bodies which sprung up. That's what crippled the region.

[Missy]

The recent updates, definitly enhanced gameplay. It forced characters to rely on one another. Something that was missing from the game before. Societies just have to become more structured. I believe Lad was the best equipped to the changes, but the only thing that hurt them was the boatloads of dead bodies which sprung up. That's what crippled the region.

Siom is most deffinately a second, I think. But then, there's ninety some people there. lol

[nitefyre]

However I do think that Cantr has lost something... and I think that is good roleplayers. I didn't mind spending a lot of time on something if my characters were talking. However the lack of role-play frustrates me and my characters become poor (in role-playing) due to the lack of interaction for them. That's my view...

I agree with most people arguing against the original post, so have little to add ... This last point is interesting, however - any suggestions how to get better roleplayers?

Easy Jos,

Just clone brainwashed and experienced people, such as, myself.

As for the gameplay versus reality, I've always sided on the gameplay and player appeal over complication. However, I still think if implemented less drastically or to not such an immediate extremity of, would've softened the impact, and given a nice, moderate blend of both qualities.

[Missy]

I don't think "Easy Jos" is the right answer in fact I think the particular question will summon a different answer from several groups of people who play the game.

I for one don't have problems with how the system was introduced, nor am I finding that I have a problem with RP'ing when I get into a populated town..(Mostly because populated towns already have a history and every corner your characters turn there's something to learn about or something to do.)

I don't think the "grid" system mentioned before is going to help people much at the moment. (not that you intend to do that at the moment,) Especially towns that have few people. While it will make the game more realistic, unpopulated towns do indeed have a problem gaining peoples interest. On the other hand, I don't blame that unpopulated centers arent gaining peoples interest on changes either--I blame the people who get spawned there. For not attempting to get anyone elses interest. Someone has to start it---for it to go anywhere. If you don't appear excited about your small town, then spawnlings wont either. (Oh, and I'm not discluded lol Its just sometimes hard to be interested.)

Anyways, im absolutely convinced that inter-island trade peaks interest for people. IE look at Siom and the interest in cotton! Or rather than inter island trade- the new resource to the people there, in Siom.

If you want to promote good RP, make it easier for people to sail to the new islands and obtain the rare resources. Encourage people to explore ICLY and do something positive rather than turn into pirates and thieve. I know that if roses were brought to Siom you'd have a paying customer with my character. And it would create something interesting and new for him to obsess about!

I'm still dying for the chance to get ahold of a character that can make a boat and make a successful trade between islands. That would be the best thing for me, to watch unfold. I want to do that so bad I can almost taste it.


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But let me also note, that those things alone don't make RP pop out of nowhere for everyone.

[nitefyre]

I don't think "Easy Jos" is the right answer in fact I think the particular question will summon a different answer from several groups of people who play the game.

I for one don't have problems with how the system was introduced, nor am I finding that I have a problem with RP'ing when I get into a populated town..(Mostly because populated towns already have a history and every corner your characters turn there's something to learn about or something to do.)

I don't think the "grid" system mentioned before is going to help people much at the moment. (not that you intend to do that at the moment,) Especially towns that have few people. While it will make the game more realistic, unpopulated towns do indeed have a problem gaining peoples interest. On the other hand, I don't blame that unpopulated centers arent gaining peoples interest on changes either--I blame the people who get spawned there. For not attempting to get anyone elses interest. Someone has to start it---for it to go anywhere. If you don't appear excited about your small town, then spawnlings wont either. (Oh, and I'm not discluded lol Its just sometimes hard to be interested.)

Anyways, im absolutely convinced that inter-island trade peaks interest for people. IE look at Siom and the interest in cotton! Or rather than inter island trade- the new resource to the people there, in Siom.

If you want to promote good RP, make it easier for people to sail to the new islands and obtain the rare resources. Encourage people to explore ICLY and do something positive rather than turn into pirates and thieve. I know that if roses were brought to Siom you'd have a paying customer with my character. And it would create something interesting and new for him to obsess about!

I'm still dying for the chance to get ahold of a character that can make a boat and make a successful trade between islands. That would be the best thing for me, to watch unfold. I want to do that so bad I can almost taste it.
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But let me also note, that those things alone don't make RP pop out of nowhere for everyone.

Well, let me start off by clarifying that the comment I made was pure sarcasm in light of the lack of simplicty there is in seriously answering the question posed.

You do not have difficulty adjusting because apparently you are not posed with the problem of survival in terms of wild lions and boars and bears and other beasts breathing down your neck (where one juggles one's food supplies with their companions to extend how long they live on this hellhole, where your commodities may or may not be found), not by choice, but by spawnling, when you live in nestled environments where life is much more easy thanks to institutions. [Though, the challenge for me, adds to the gameplay, but for others, the value of that char's life may just be a waste of time-since 'life' isn't that valuable for the player sometimes, like in these environments where the char can't really develop] You reference Siom, and that Coastal Town is in a very suitable location for intercontinental trade and travel, (with wood being one town over for a longboat, not that hard if you were to try to take the challenge upon yourself) with one island just across the sea as found in the late Armedian's (w/ Jordan Moriss) map, and the other, smaller Sring Sri island, not that incredibly far away down the coast. I think the Staff have already placed 'encouragement' in game to explore, as in those mixtures that need rare materials, which aren't easily accessible on the mainland(s). This is already an OOC game mechanic being introduced to promote IC exploration (but mind you, endless days aboard ship become restless, even with the best of crews). Thus, there is already a motivation, more than several entrepreneurs who explore, but of course, there'll still be pirates, what's wrong with them?- They do give good tales to tell (upon their capture) and boost culture related items (like books- suggested reading can be found in KDS )

You also spoke of smaller town's not really grabbing the attention of players, but I think the sheer mutlitude of options, societies (or the lack thereof, for you to plot on) are part of a combined, already existent potion to keeping gameplay value and realism (though the actual weather enivornment-i.e. snow in mountains doesn't exist), but I don't think this is what is being questioned in gameplay. It is the actual mechanics of tiredness and such things, which disadvantage some more than others, which is of concern. I think your point of 'small towns' being generally uninteresting is an unsubstantiated opinion that is easily resolved, without comment, once a 'leader' type character can communicate amongst the sleepers and coordinate some sort of effort. Those are always fun to do (and I have done).

[Pirog]

A solution to getting better RP'ers here is of course to advertise on RPG forums etc.

With the lack of good text based RPGs I bet a lot of people would like the idea. But Cantr isn't the kind of game you know about unless told...

[Jos Elkink]

That is, of course, what we do, Pirog, and how we got a large portion of our players.

Missy, it is true that smaller towns are less popular than bigger towns, but ... isn't that a tautology? ... That's why they are small. Once they get more interesting (e.g. Brunoi used to be small), they're not small anymore, and hence it's still the small ones that are unattractive ... So your argument probably always holds.

It is funny to see some contradictions in these discussions. One is complaining that there are too few natural disasters to make life interesting; the other is complaining that life is hard because of all the animals in their region. Personally, I think a cool thing about the game is to have harsh areas like those with all the animals, and easier areas like the big cities, while being able to have several characters at once, so that you can play in this game from completely different perspectives. (The only sense in which this does not hold is that some complete language areas are 'harsh', which is perhaps slightly unfair.)

It is contradictions like these that make it most complicated to please the players. Someone said the game should be fun rather than realistic, but what is 'fun'? For some, fun is easy areas with lots of cooperation, almost commune like, and then building / manufacturing etc. loads of stuff; for others fun is playing pirates that scavenge whole cities; for others fun is to find a strategy to beat pirates; for others fun is to play a complete war, or sneaky politicians, or smart traders, or patient explorers ... Some want quietness, others want big towns. Some want to play how they give flowers to their beloved, others want to play politics only .... in other words, it is almost impossible to please everyone.

So I just decided to only please myself ...

... or no, scrap that one. ... I guess the only solution is to keep the hugely freestyle game Cantr currently is. So, I guess it's not a huge problem - it's exactly why Cantr works, actually - but it also means that it is not in any sense simple to make the game fun or to keep players. Not everybody thinks that a simpler game is more fun. Also, whereas some people only consider a game fun when they understand the ins and outs completely, others have a lot of fun just focusing on one particular aspect of the game. I, for example, have lost complete sight of how to manufacture most things, I have no clue about what common prices are in the Cantr economy, I don't know what weapons are good and which are worse, yet I'm having a cool time playing Cantr, focusing simply on politics, organisation, finance, military, etc. Others may get to know all about the different diseases or all the plants or all the resources, while not understanding the steel production process. Or some are good at sailing and mapmaking, while not being interested in politics ... All those people can have fun, but indeed it will be harder and harder to be able to do all of these at the same time, and for people that want that, more realistic might make the game less fun. For those who focus more, more realistic means probably more fun.

Hmm, I'm in a rambling mood and can easily go for another 2000 words, but I'd better stop ...

[nitefyre]

That is, of course, what we do, Pirog, and how we got a large portion of our players.


It is funny to see some contradictions in these discussions. One is complaining that there are too few natural disasters to make life interesting; the other is complaining that life is hard because of all the animals in their region. Personally, I think a cool thing about the game is to have harsh areas like those with all the animals, and easier areas like the big cities, while being able to have several characters at once, so that you can play in this game from completely different perspectives. (The only sense in which this does not hold is that some complete language areas are 'harsh', which is perhaps slightly unfair.)

Hmm, I'm in a rambling mood and can easily go for another 2000 words, but I'd better stop ...

I assume you made that paragraph in response to what Missy said and then what I said about developed areas- I was simply bringing up the existence of these places- sometimes forgotten by people (and the majority of my characters are in 'civilized' locations). I'm just asking that they not be forgotten and receive the sour ends of any changes in Cantr mechanics, and to keep them in mind when one whines about the changes in Cantr affecting their characters (as it certainly has a change in these chars). More simply, I was responding to Missy's, "I for one don't have problems with how the system was introduced, nor am I finding that I have a problem with RP'ing when I get into a populated town..(Mostly because populated towns already have a history and every corner your characters turn there's something to learn about or something to do.)"



And yes, it's pretty much taken for granted that the array of possibilities are what make Cantr so approachable for a lot of its players. I like the assortment of types of chars I have, but I realize, more and more of them seem to be taking to sea. I think realism and gameplay aren't contradictions, but rather the two extremes, as I said earlier, that can be balanced, not in one extreme or the other. Considering the very steep learning curve of Cantr, is where it is important to keep simplicity in mind, to maintain Cantr's approachability, in this field as well.