Cantr II Discussion Forum

The Ultimate International Language is a forum to discuss interesting features of various languages, with the hope of working together to create a new international language. There are only about 5 members so far, but there have been some interesting posts already.

http://ultintlang.conceptbb.com

If you're interested, join up!

[Updated: 2nd Oct 2006]

The ultimate international language will be one which is embraced by international media and business.
This langugae will most likely be the one which the leaders of these sectors are familiar with - probably the one they were brought up speaking
An international langugae will the langugae which the consumers of international media, business and international products already speak or are familiar with.
An international language will be perpetuated by international business, consumerism and media, as long as those business using said international language maintain their leadership of their fields.
However, once an international language has been made generally accepted, over a long-term period, by international consumers and businesses, the international media, business and consumer organisations no longer need to be based in the area which is the 'native' location for the international language - they can move, be replaced by others, or even move beyond having any particular national or regional base as such.

Such a thing has already happened.
American-English has become the international language - for the reasons given above. Whilst international trade is an ancient thing, at least within certain regions, true international business, and more importantly, media, did not take off until Post World War II - when America was in a very strong position to be the leadeer in this field. Brands such as Coca Cola, manufacturers such as Ford, traders, financiers and so forth, were most likely based in America - so they used the first language of their head office, and required those who worked for them in international offices to speak that language.
More importantly, they made it such that the consumers - of Cola, finance services, media etc. - were required to speak American-English. This was not difficult, as most of the consumers would have been well-paid (Cola was a drink for the masses at home, a drink for the rich elsewhere - same with media (radio, then TV) products). In order to become well-paid, that person would most likely have learnt English to be able to compete in increasingly international business.

America continues to be the prime leader of media - Hollywood and so forth, and the major leader in mass consumer products - McD's and Coke - although arguably loosing out in more specialised areas. As such, there is still a backbone to the international use of American-English.

Cars might now be made in numerous locations, your t-shirt may be from China, your financiers may be based in Japan, you may watch Bollywood movies - but American-English got its foot in first.

The internet is an obvoius example - the VAST majority of sites are primarily in American/English. This is far out of proportion to the number of American-based sites, although they are still the majority, and even further out of proportion to the number of English-as-first-languge users (35%).

They already tried that. It's called esparanto, and it's a stupid idea.


Farmer's right. Learn English, Hindi or Chinese, if you ask me, those are the future, although less so English than Hindi or Chinese.

It is a pity, that now I can not express - it is compelled to leave. But I will be released - I will necessarily write that I think on this question.

Bah, you forget spanish, the 2nd mother tongue in the world, and the 3rd in number of people who speak it...

If you're trying to give an advice, I think you should consider the situation in short term effect, not in a long term effect.
What I mean is that maybe hindi or chinese languages will conquer the spoken world in a time of 1000-3000 years in the future, but in which way could it be useful to learn hindi for a person who won't pass the 2080, being optimist?
Just try to learn english as it is the "language of this time". Time of your life.
And maybe some knowledge on french, spanish or german could be superlative for someone who wants to be on stage.
¿Chinese or Hindi? Well, if you insist, try Nepali.

Wilmer B.

*sighs*
hallucinatingfarmer:
Language is not the exclusive domain of business, and the ultimate international language should be a language of the people. It would be a language that people want to learn, to be able to speak to each other easily, rather than a language they have to learn in order to get a job. Business isn't interested in bringing people together, just bringing products to people. English may be the most wide-spread language, but that doesn't make it the best, or even good.

Schme:
It's called Esperanto. I'm quite familiar with it. What makes you think it's "a stupid idea"?

Others:
Please don't keep suggesting languages to learn. That is not what this is about! Please visit the link and read what the group is about. If you're interested, join up. If you're not interested, don't. If you "don't get it", ask.
There's been a lot of discussion in Esperanto threads about 'what's the point, just learn english' kinds of attitudes. Please read them.

UloDeTero wrote:the ultimate international language should be a language of the people. It would be a language that people

Yes

Business isn't interested in bringing people together, just bringing products to people.

Certainly.

I agree - wholeheartedly - those are the sort of statements I like to hear.

But, unfortunately, large business has the power, and has used that power, to make English international.

Esperanto didn't become the international language for a variety of resons - in particular, though, it was because it was devised by academics - and thus had little relation to 'the people'.

To have an 'international language of the people' requires that people identify with some international level.

National languages work because many people do identify with a national level - they are citizens of a nation, wave the flag, support the team, speak the language.

Nation-building (and nations were built - they are not inherent) was a process which included langugae - exclusion. There are numerous cases in Europe - The nation of spain made Spanish the national language - the 'national language of the people' - excluding not only Catalan, but a range of much more local languages. Britain did the same - excluding Welsh and Scottish. We have seen a shift - people do identify on a national level, but also on smaller levels - hence, there has been pressure from 'the people' to reinstate 'the people's language' - so we now have Catalan in offical places in barcelona, Welsh on sign posts, etc. etc.

These examples show that maybe even the national level is too broad a level for identification - and that heritage, and identity are inherent in which language someone chooses. Catalan and Welsh (and the countless other examples) are so fiercly defend because of their heritage - and because of the identity they provide to those who choose them.

An international language will not have this heritage. It will not have thousands of years of history - which is one major block to anyone identifying with it.

Moreover, an international language will be a language of the elite - academics, politicians, business, you and me (who are the elite on the world level, as we are the proveleged few who have access to the international level, if only via the internet)

This is because those who identify on an international level are those who live and work on that international level - the elite.

They are not 'the people'
'The people' do not identify on an international level, thus will have no interest in adopting an international language.

Furthermore, they certainly won't have any interest in adopting a langugae that they have no input into its creation - and can a few billion people all have input into something?

I agree with your sentiments - for the people, not for business - completely, anyone here who reads my stuff will know that. But I think you have missed an inherently important issue - that the international level is the preserve of the rich and the elite - and whilst you and I may identify on some inter-, or at least, trans-national level, the vast majority of the world's people do not.

Without identifying on an international level - 'the people' will not want to learn it.
Thus an international language will be not be by the people, for the people, but by the elite, for the elite (and then likely enforced through lack of choice onto 'the people' - as has already happened in the way I described earlier)

hallucinatingfarmer:

You make some interesting points, and now I see where you're coming from. Thanks.

The People is a kinda vague expression, so I'll clarify what I mean by it. In my opinion, 'the people' is anyone who just wants to get along with his fellowman, in mutual respect, rather than to exploit them. A businessman who respects his customers, and mankind in general, and perhaps puts money back into his community, could therefore be considered a man of the people. What I'm saying is: One doesn't have to be poor to be one of The People. And one who is wealthy or 'elite' is not necessarily excluded from the ranks of The People.
By western standards, my family and I are quite poor. By 'third world' standards, we're probably almost royalty! Does any of that affect my People-status? I don't think so, since it's about attitudes rather than anything else.

I agree that an international language holds little interest to those who have no international contacts. But (and I apologise if this wasn't clear) it would not be the intention of the ultimate international language to steam-roller over all national languages and plant the flag as the one-and-only language of Earth. It would of course be an auxillary language, as Esperanto is, to use alongside native languages. That requires it to be simple and easy to learn, which is one of the many goals. Other goals are neutrality and international appeal.
True, it would initially be used mainly on the internet (since that is where it would be developed), and therefore it would be initially an 'elite' project. But, in time, it could be introduced to those in poor countries who have no internet but still wish to conduct international business and commerce, or those who simply wish to communicate with people from other lands. Those who do not want or need it, do not need to have it. It would nevertheless represent The People because it would be freely available to everyone, for the benefit of everyone.

The main aspect (and probably 'selling' point) of such an international language is that it would represent equality across all countries. Thus, poor people would not have to learn English (a complicated language), and resent having to do so because of some history or perception toward the English or American people. Imagine some Middle Eastern guy who needs to learn English in order to feed his family, despite his animosity toward America, and western elitism in general. With no country to associate it with, people could concentrate on the language itself and what it represents.




[Edit: Forgot to add HF's name at the top... ]

So by my understanding this langauge could be theoretically Latin. It used to be a trade and international language long after the original speakers died out, no country speaks latin but there are lots of latin speakers.

I fit your definition of the people, and I'm not at all interested in esparanto or whatever else.


Why it's a bad idea? It won't go anywhere.

Don't you think it would be easier to learn an existing language that's already functions and developed over thousands of years instead of inventing a new one that nobody and would have to learn.

Furthermore, espanranto is a latin based language, thus making it very difficult for anyone who does not speak a latin based language to learn. We already have latin based languages. They work. Why would someone go and learn some made up language that will do them no good? For fun, sure, that's all well and good, but it's not going to be a major world changing deal here.

Interesting discussion.

I think Schme is right. Esperanto won't get far. It is still to complicated and overly precise and the vocabulary is not very easy to learn because of it mixed origin.

If you really want to create an international language, take English and reform ortography and grammar. Most people understand at least some English so thats a good base to start.

By the way, Esperanto is not much more latin based than English is.

Piscator wrote:
By the way, Esperanto is not much more latin based than English is.

Shows what I know.

But then, why not Chinese or Hindi?

Those are going to be big, soon.

One day, it will be Chinese or Hindi that the international bussinessmen will speak, rather than English. But at present, English isn't bad either.


Don't get me wrong, though. If learning Esparanto is fun, by all means I say enjoy yourselves. Improve your mind. I just don't think it's the next big thing.

Schme wrote: I just don't think it's the next big thing.

As do I.

Hindi won´t have a great chance, because its just one Indian language. English is more widely spoken all over the world.

Chinese, yes, it surely will become very important, but English or an English based language would have the advance of being relatively close to Spanish,French,Portugese,German and so on. If you sum it up the amount of Chinese speakers and the speakers of European languages are pretty equal.

In any case, a common language for half the world would be a fine thing, too.

For what it's worth, in thei debate I wouldn't back Chinese either.

In the same way as Hindi, its one of a number of languages in a single country (I assume y'all mean Mandarin Chinese and not Cantonese and I think there are six or seven very different dialogues). I'm far from a linguist but I know from using translators that someone from one region of China may not be able to understand another.

The other thing is China seems to be adopting English for a lot of its bussiness use and, as with a lot of places, I can envisage, if it is not already happening, a form of elite upper middle class who will make it their bussiness to learn engish... Don't mistake the effect of fashion/music too...

Maybe someone should write some Esperanto Rap?