Cantr II Discussion Forum

Jos volunteered me to write a short Esperanto course for this forum so that more people can play in the Esperanto region. This idea would be rather ludicrous if proposed for German, Spanish, Polish or any other Cantr language, since it takes years of studying to sufficiently master any of these languages, but Esperanto is so regular and easy to learn that it's actually a possibility.

So I'm ready to write this course, but if I am to take that trouble, I'd like to know beforehand that somebody will actually study the course. Please cast your vote in order to indicate whether you'd participate or not. If you'd participate, I'm also interested in knowing your expectations for the course and any languages you know / have studied before, so that I can customise the course accordingly. Thanks!

More information about Esperanto: http://www.esperanto.net
A software program to learn Esperanto: http://www.cursodeesperanto.com.br
Links to correspondance courses for Esperanto in many languages: http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~martinw/esperanto/veb/lerni.html

If it is as easy as it is made out to be, I'll join in, but this means another one of my characters will have to die and that could take years (IRL)

Whats wrong with english?

The chances of me ever meeting someone who spoke this is...there aren't any. And theres no point in learning it just for cantr.

Besides I can think of far more constructive things to do, like see what baileys and cereal tastes like when theres no milk in the fridge.

No "maybe" option?

I might like to, but I also don't know if I can (or want to) put much time or effort into it. And there's no point in doing anything if that's the case.

I'm rather in the same boat, I'm afraid. I would love to try it, but I assume it will take up more of my time than Jos would like. (Man, he's a slave driver! )

I also don't have room for another char, which, though I know I wouldn't want to have an Esperanto one until after I took the course, I haven't had one die in........thirty Cantr years. And it is hopefully going to be that long before I lose another of my precious little charges.

Edit: Okay, it's only been about 15 Cantr years since my last character's death, I was so kindly reminded. I had blocked that one out due to the trauma it caused me, but thanks for the reminder, Nitefyre )

Sure, I'd give it a shot!

I've been trying to relearn all the Spanish I forgot from highshcool recently, and after taking a look around that Unilang site Junesun linked to in the other thread Esperanto actually looks a lot easier. I'm currently working my way through the little children's story there, though unfortunately it doesn't include many Cantr specific terms like 'saber' or 'note thief'.

But how important would you say things like accent marks and the, uh...little pointy thing above the '6' that looks like the roof of a house are? (Stand in awe of my amazing grasp of technical terminology! )

Because if there's a way to reproduce those with my keyboard I haven't figured it out yet.

I actually disagree with the "easy" learning of Esperanto, because as a language-nut, I've tried it twice before and didn't get far with it.
But I still voted yes, because, well, I'm a language nut... so I'd give it a third, fourth, fifth, sixth and so on attempt until either I learnt it, or my head explodes, taking out three quarters of the civilized world in the explosion

The biggest surprise for me about Esperanto, I must say, is that it had some points that, in my view, it shared with papiamento.
Another language which I've tried to learn (the language of my father's family) but, like Esperanto, I flunked.
Hm.... must be me getting older, maybe a hypnotic session would get my brain back in gear so I can absorb more knowledge... yes... yes... [insert weird ceremony of me putting on a huge brain-shaped helmet]
Heh...

Lumin:
There's some interesting stuff if you press the alt and ctrl key simultaniously with the letters or number-keys.

For example:
á ===> CTRL+ALT+a
ó ===> CTRL+ALT+o
ß ===> CTRL+ALT+s

Just give it a try in notepad or something, and get a bit of a listing of what your keyboard does with it.
Also, with some keyboards, if you first hit the accent thingy or the roof thingy, and then a letter, it makes certain characters.
For example, my keyboard does this:
à ===> First I hit the `-key, released it, and then the a-key.
ç ===> First I hit the '-key, released it, and then the c-key.

i voted "no" unless of course someone wants to volunteer to do some of my homework for me or be my personal house servant then i might have the time to foster such interests...

sounds like a good idea tho....there just aren't enough hours in the day

Lumin:
About the accent marks; They are important, and, for example, s is completely different from ŝ, and has a different sound. Having said that, they are incredibly easy to learn and remember.

They can be a problem to type, however, unless you know how. I use a specialised (free) program called Ek, which I highly recommend! Other people like to use 'x's or 'h's (eg: 'ŝ' = 'sx' or 'sh') but personally I prefer the accents!

About a "perhaps" option: that would make things too easy I want to have definite answers here, so that I know how many students to expect. Of course I won't be angry if later people decide to participate even though they didn't vote "Yes".

In the interest of those who don't have much time to invest, I will try to make many short lessons rather than a few big ones. That should allow you to do or review a lesson whenever you have a few minutes to spare, for example while waiting for somebody to return a phone call. Everybody has this kind of breaks.

Cookie Monster: there are actually pretty good chances of meeting people who speak Esperanto because there are Esperanto clubs in almost all cities. The problem is more to recognise that you could be talking Esperanto to a person, because it's not written in his face. I'm sure some of your acquaintances know Esperanto but never told you. Anyways there are many places where you get farther with Esperanto than English because:
- if you speak English and English is your native language, you're just the average tourist who didn't make an effort to learn the country's language and expects everybody to know his language instead. Knowing Esperanto sets you apart from the mass of tourists, indicates an interest in international understanding and shows people that you're ready to meet them on an equal footing (no fear of being laughed at for making mistakes -> more readiness to speak the language);
- Esperanto is much more convenient for communication. While a lot of people have been forced to learn some English at school, they hated it and hence forgot it or refuse to speak it. Many also never acquired a good command of the language because it's so difficult, for example in China I found lots of people who could only say "Hello" and "How are you?" and were at a loss when I answered. Esperanto is learned only on a voluntary basis, sometimes spoken with preference to the own native language (at Esperantist meetings) and it allows for much better communication even with only rudimentary knowledge;
- the hospitality amongst Esperanto speakers is great. You'll learn much more about the people and the country you visit and you'll be shown places that the average tourist doesn't get to see;

It has also been proven that knowing Esperanto gives you a good basis for learning other languages, much like Latin does. For example, there was a case study in Canada: anglophone pupils of one class learned French for three years. Another anglophone class of the same level learned Esperanto for one year and then French for two years. The class that had learned Esperanto first had a much better level of French afterwards, even though they didn't study French as long as the other class.

Wolf: which course did you try? I can't imagine somebody describing Esperanto in a way as to make it difficult, perhaps it was more of an issue of motivation. It's great you're ready to give it another try though.

Lumin: Esperanto was invented before computers existed and unfortunately the computer producers at first didn't think of allowing for this kind of accent on letters. In fact, French accents weren't possible at first either. Now Esperanto accents are part of Unicode and therefore useable on a modern computer, but for inputting you'll need a special program. It is widely acceptable to replace them using x or h or ^ after the letter though, which is easier to input and also better for Unicode-challenged computers.

Hmmm...looks simple and interesting.

Thanks for taking the time. I think I'll try it.

At what stage in the training would you think someone would be able to be decent enough to start a character in the Esperanto area?

Stan wrote:At what stage in the training would you think someone would be able to be decent enough to start a character in the Esperanto area?

When you know all the grammar rules and at least basic affixes. I'll mark that in the course I write. In the two off-site courses I mentioned, I'd estimate that point is reached after the completion of the 12-lesson software course or after the 6th lesson of the "Senkosta Esperanta Kurso" e-mail course.

There really isn't that much to learn, especially in terms of grammar. I know the German Esperanto youth organisation distributes leaflets on the basis of one A5 paper (print on both sides). These leaflets contain information about Esperanto and contact addresses, but also useful phrases, all grammar, most affixes and 100 word stems, which can be combined with the affixes to form a vocabulary of at least 500 words.

what exactly IS esperanto? i know i'm not real hot at geography, but last time a checked there was no Esprainia or anything

sorry to sound a fool, but i'm a bit confused....

i have a big interest in traveling, so if it truly is quick an easy, and useful, maybe i would be interested

[quote="Junesun"]
Anyways there are many places where you get farther with Esperanto than English because:
- if you speak English and English is your native language, you're just the average tourist who didn't make an effort to learn the country's language and expects everybody to know his language instead. Knowing Esperanto sets you apart from the mass of tourists, indicates an interest in international understanding and shows people that you're ready to meet them on an equal footing (no fear of being laughed at for making mistakes -> more readiness to speak the language);
- Esperanto is much more convenient for communication. While a lot of people have been forced to learn some English at school, they hated it and hence forgot it or refuse to speak it. Many also never acquired a good command of the language because it's so difficult, for example in China I found lots of people who could only say "Hello" and "How are you?" and were at a loss when I answered. Esperanto is learned only on a voluntary basis, sometimes spoken with preference to the own native language (at Esperantist meetings) and it allows for much better communication even with only rudimentary knowledge;
[quote]

This is absolutely nonsense in my opinion, I don't have anything against Esperanto, but I am sure that anyone who speaks esperanto can also speak english.

There is no country in the world with esperanto as native language and there is no way that less educated people speak this. So if you say that you can communicate well within the group of people who learned Esperanto, alright that's maybe true. But 99% of all people will not speak esperanto ever nor learn it. The tourist point is absolutely ridicilous, there is nothing about your language that sets you apart from the 'mass of tourists'. It is the behavior of you as a person when coming in contact with people.

I do not deny that people who learn esperanto are probably well educated, civilized, open-minded and interested in lots of different cultures and people(although the desire for a uniform language is for me something anti-cultural - civilization should never be artificial). But if you say that people will appreciate you more because you speak esperanto that is absolutely not true. I mean, I don't speak it, I am actually interested in it. But if I could speak it, with whom could I speak it? With the other few people that speak it. With them communication will probably be easy and fluent but no more than if I and my conversation partner would talk in english.

If you learn esperanto and don't learn the native language of the country you visit, you are in no way a less average than the people who speak english.

Imagine: you travel to any non-english country. Let's say Hungary, or Turkey. When you get off your plane and into the city and start talking esperanto, you will get nowhere and you are not bearing more respect to the native culture than if you where talking english.

English is not only the native language of half a billion people in the world, it has also evolved into the language of international communication. It evolved along with international economy, politics, sports, development,...

Denying this means denying world culture. 100 years ago the international language was french, it was latin for almost ten centuries and it was greek for almost ten centuries as well.

I can understand that people don't want to speak English. That is their right. But you can not deny that English is the international language.

It is also not certain how long it will remain so. Chinese is moving up rather quickly, especially due to the economic development of China. Perhaps in ten, twenty years Chinese will be (partially) the international language. Maybe Spanish,...

Please implement this!