discussion of competive abil. of people educated by US inst.

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jeslange
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discussion of competive abil. of people educated by US inst.

Postby jeslange » Mon May 17, 2004 6:49 pm

Feel free to approach this topic in a different way than through these spark Q's...

-Have any non-U.S. people noticed a measure of degredation in the value attached to credentials from U.S. education institutions?

-For those currently in an American school:
-In your school, are you noticing a greater awareness of the relatively poor performance of American students versus students from other developed countries?
-If so, what kinds of reactions have you noticed amongst students, parents, admins, teachers, county/state officials, or whomever you've noticed reactions from?


Please everyone wait until at least page two to turn this into an "Americans are stupid, and shouldn't be in Iraq." topic :)
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Re: discussion of competive abil. of people educated by US i

Postby The Hunter » Mon May 17, 2004 6:59 pm

jeslange wrote:Please everyone wait until at least page two to turn this into an "Americans are stupid, and...


Well, if the educational level of student keep degrading, well, yeah, they will be... :lol:

But seriously. Have no experience in American schools or whatever other educational facilities, but from what I've heard, it's generally concluded as "poor" yeah.

Something to do with insufficient levels of education or something. (Bright kids together in a clas with morons).
Again, this is hearsay. Do not attack me untill I've donned my anti flame armour. :evil:
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Postby west » Mon May 17, 2004 7:02 pm

Actually, Hunter, American colleges and universities are generally agreed to be the best in the world. It's our elementary and secondary schools that are poor.
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Postby The Hunter » Mon May 17, 2004 7:09 pm

jeslange wrote:Have any non-U.S. people noticed a measure of degredation in the value attached to credentials from U.S. education institutions?


the Hunter wrote:Have no experience in American schools or whatever other educational facilities, but from what I've heard, it's generally concluded as "poor" yeah.
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"Our enemies are resourceful and innovative".

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They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and people"

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Postby jeslange » Mon May 17, 2004 7:49 pm

The fact that children recognized as being advanced are (usually) intentionally kept in the same learning group as less capable students would seem to have a significant effect on our topic

-gifted kids often become "disciplinary problems" for such benign offenses as asking questions about the subject that aren't "relevant", because the class is not yet to the point in the course that deals with the topic, and things like the kid becoming bored and then not paying attention/ being disruptive, etc as early as elementary school.

-Students identified as gifted have a higher dropout rate in proportion to both "regular" and "disadvantaged students."

-government run schools usually choose to spend on programs designed to lift poorly performing students up to a mediocre standard, rather than spending on programs to advance gifted kids.

In general, students with potential are stifled in most U.S. schools, which effects our overall ability to compete with students who are held to a high level of academic performace in other countries.

@Hunter: How does the education system in your country tend to handle gifted kids?
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Postby rklenseth » Mon May 17, 2004 7:53 pm

The education system in America is bad and definitely needs to be revamped. I believe in the whole well rounded education but by the time a person is out of Middle School that person has learned all the basics. Anything after that should be the decision of the student by what field of work they want to go into, what they are interested in.

Most of the stuff learned mostly after Middle School is never used by a person again unless they go into a field of work that requires them to know it.

Most of the stuff I learned today is stuff I had a pratical use for or I had a personal interest in. I learned a lot of stuff in Boy Scouts more than I learned in school. That is because I what I was learning is stuff that I could use. I sit through 2 hours of math class learning about stuff I will never use ever in my life. That in my opinion is a wasted two hours.

Learn the basics but everything after that should be determined by interest, praticallity, and field of work.

Anyways, there are a lot of foreign students at my school.
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Postby jeslange » Mon May 17, 2004 8:01 pm

@West: There definately seems to be alot more trouble with the lower leverls of our ed. system, but it appears to already be having an effect on higher education, which will likely become more pronounced when those in the lower levels reach the college level.

For my part, I've noticed a major difference in the work ethic of nationals versus non-native students. They appear to be much more likely to be in class on time, prepared, attentive, etc. Also, they appear to produce better quality papers in English than do those for whom English is a first language. However, Georgia (my state) is deemed the worst of the U.S. regarding test scores, writing skills and such, so perhaps what I'm seeing is more related to the performance of Georgia students vs. non-natives than most U.S. students vs. non-natives.
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Postby jeslange » Mon May 17, 2004 8:27 pm

@RK: I'm split on the "well-rounded" vs. "specialized" debate, or whatever it might officially be called. I think there's room for both, but that neither are being handled as they should.

Re: well-rounded.....Introducing a young person to many subjects (not just in school) would seem to be the best way to let them discover their interests and also to have a good basis to build on regardless of what they choose to do when they're older. In our system though, the basics either aren't being taught well enough, or aren't being absorbed well enough compared to how well we should be able to do those things given our economic situation, imo.

Re:specialized....I like the idea of Montesorri (sp?) and magnet schools, or schools where the basics are still taught, but students spend extra time on subjects that they do well in and prefer. I think some let you substitute electives for additional core classes in your specialty, and some substitue a regular version of the subject(s) in your specialty with challenge/honor type versions of those courses.

You mentioned that you took more away from Boy Scouts than from your regular education. Other than your feeling that what you learned in Boy Scouts is more applicable to your life, are there other factors that you think might have also influenced that feeling? I.E.: discipline/structure in B.S. vs. school, recognition for achievements in the Scouts vs. recognition at school, relationships w/ troop leader, etc. vs. relationships w/ teachers/admins, open acceptance of praying (I think?), in B.S., etc?
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Postby The Hunter » Mon May 17, 2004 8:36 pm

jeslange wrote:@Hunter: How does the education system in your country tend to handle gifted kids?


Actually, I have little knowledge of the Dutch schoolsystem as I went to german schools most of my life... I don't know how the system is in the US, but in the Netherlands, we have several levels of difficulty for kids in the age of abt. 14-15. I've heard that there are some special programs for unusually bright kids, but the extremely intelligent share the same fate with the US kids I'm afraid.
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Postby trage » Tue May 18, 2004 12:49 am

*sigh* Yes sadly there is not much done with "gifted" kids at my school. I never feel as if I am being challenged and usually lose interest in my class because I already know the stuff I am learning. The only classes that really hold my attention are the ones I chose. Otherwise I usually just read a book during class and do fine.....
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Postby Jos Elkink » Tue May 18, 2004 8:37 am

west wrote:Actually, Hunter, American colleges and universities are generally agreed to be the best in the world. It's our elementary and secondary schools that are poor.


I can't really judge at all, but the opinion I hear more regularly, is that also undergraduate level at university is rather poor, and that it is at the graduate level that the American universities suddenly pass all others in quality.

But I can't really judge, as I said. I had undergraduate in the Netherlands, and it is definitely of much higher level than undergraduate here in Ireland. Postgraduate here in Ireland is O.K., but I seriously regret not to have gone to the US for that ...
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Postby Junesun » Tue May 18, 2004 9:04 am

I'm from Germany. I haven't had the opportunity to spend some time in an American school, but many of my classmates did. They generally reported that the lessons were too easy, even the USA-related stuff that we don't do in that much detail over here (English-language literature & creative writing, American history, American geography...). They found it amusing that there are multiple-choice questions in tests, where you can achieve a "pass" through pure luck.

Over here, all tests require a substantial amount of writing, the only exception being fill-in grammar exercises for foreign languages. This amount of free writing might be the reason that many immigrants have trouble when joining the German school system, at first. There are integrative measures being taken, but still there's a higher percentage of immigrants going to a lower form of secondary school. Primary school is the same for everyone, but then there are 4 types of secondary school:
1) the Gymnasium, for those who had good marks in primary school. Gymnasium takes 3 years longer than the other types of schools, but in return, you get a certificate allowing you to go to any university, afterwards. If you just complete one of the other forms of secondary school, you aren't allowed to go to university, just to trade schools and the like. You can however choose to switch to Gymnasium while or after you attended a different form of school.
2) the Realschule, for those who had average marks in primary school
3) the Hauptschule, for those who bad bad marks in primary school
4) the Sonderschule, for those with learning disabilities.
Lately, Germany has also adopted the concept of a comprehensive school, called Gesamtschule. That one is supposed to put you into the right classes according to your abilities in each subject. So far, it is not very successful; a final certificate acquired at a Gesamtschule is only theoretically valued as much as the one of a Gymnasium.

Nobody forces parents to send their child to a specific type of secondary school, it is their decision. Primary school teachers are just there to give them a recommendation. That the Gymnasium isn't overrun is mainly due to: a) parents usually understand that it's better for the child to be in an environment where it's at least average in class and where teachers explain things as often as necessary; rather than one where it constantly has to strive to keep up; b) if your marks are too bad, you have to repeat a year. You can't repeat the same year twice and you can't repeat more than 3 years total, so if, after a year of repeating, your marks still aren't good enough for a "pass", you are sent to a different type of school.

I think this division into different types of secondary school is a good idea, because it means that classes are more homogenous and there are therefore less bored people and less people slowing down the class by asking things that everybody else understood. Also, it allows for a differentiated lesson plan: the Hauptschule and Realschule teach more practical-oriented stuff for example, whereas the Gymnasium also teaches skills that are necessary at university. For example when introducing a new formula in maths, Hauptschule and Realschule would just teach you to use that formula in everyday applications, whereas the Gymnasium would also teach you how to derive it, why it is the way it is. Also, the requirements of foreign languages are different at these types of school: in order to complete Hauptschule or Realschule, you just need to know one foreign language; for Gymnasium you have to know at least two, and have taken classes in them for at least 9 and 5 years. It is possible to do a little detour via the Realschule around the time the second foreign language is introduced, which allows you to start learning a second foreign language only in grade 11, so that you'd learn the second foreign language for just 3 years, rather than 5. But this doesn't really make a difference because the foreign language starting in grade 11 is usually taught in a very compact manner, e. g. I took Italian at that stage and three years afterwards, the course was able to converse about the ecological problems of Venice, the reasons for the acqua alta (frequent high water flooding the town), the problems of mass tourism etc. in Italian.

For particularly gifted kids, there is the possibility to start university while they haven't yet finished Gymnasium. Also, there's a foundation that gives extra seminars for them, though not very often and not for the masses.

@Hunter: aren't you confusing the Netherlands and Germany? Our school systems are quite diverse...

Just my two cents ;-)

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Postby Jos Elkink » Tue May 18, 2004 11:02 am

Junesun wrote:@Hunter: aren't you confusing the Netherlands and Germany? Our school systems are quite diverse...


Heh? Your story sounds almost like a description of the Dutch system :) ... Well, there are serious differences, but only at a level that you don't describe :) ... (e.g. the system that you have an internship between highschool and college). The Netherlands also has different levels of highschool - very similar - with the same kind of rules.

If you want details:

Gymnasium - 6 yrs - allows entry in university
Atheneum - 6 yrs - is Gymnasium without Latin and Greek - allows entry in univ.
HAVO - 5 yrs - allows entry into higher technical school / trade schools, or into fifth year Atheneum
MAVO - 4 yrs - allows entry into middle technical school / trade schools, or into fourth year HAVO
Lower technical school / trade school

And then a whole bunch of other slight variations :) ... It's far more complicated than the American system :) ...

Sounds similar, no? :)
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Postby The Hunter » Tue May 18, 2004 2:01 pm

Junesun wrote:@Hunter: aren't you confusing the Netherlands and Germany? Our school systems are quite diverse...


Well, like Jos said, the Dutch and German syxtems are quite simular. The major difference is that in germany you leave primary school at class 4 and in the Netherlands it's class 6...
Also, the level is a bit higher in the Netherlands... :wink:
The Dutch system is also based a bit more on working independently whereas the german system is more classwide.

(I should know, i visited both Dutch and German schools).
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"Our enemies are resourceful and innovative".

"and so are we..."

They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and people"

"and neither do we"

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Postby rklenseth » Tue May 18, 2004 3:28 pm

I use to go to the gymnasium everyday in High School except I think you are talking about something quite different than the one that I am talking about. :wink:

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