Pat Tillman: Hero or Zero?

General chitchat, advertisements for other services, and other non-Cantr-related topics

Moderators: Public Relations Department, Players Department

What do you think?

Poll ended at Thu May 06, 2004 5:19 am

Hero
11
85%
Zero
2
15%
 
Total votes: 13
Sanglant
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:11 pm

Pat Tillman: Hero or Zero?

Postby Sanglant » Sat May 01, 2004 5:19 am

Pat Tillman is not a hero: He got what was coming to him

By Rene Gonzalez
April 28, 2004


When the death of Pat Tillman occurred, I turned to my friend who was watching the news with me and said, "How much you want to bet they start talking about him as a 'hero' in about two hours?" Of course, my friend did not want to make that bet. He'd lose. In this self-critical incapable nation, nothing but a knee-jerk "He's a hero" response is to be expected.

I've been mystified at the absolute nonsense of being in "awe" of Tillman's "sacrifice" that has been the American response. Mystified, but not surprised. True, it's not everyday that you forgo a $3.6 million contract for joining the military. And, not just the regular army, but the elite Army Rangers. You know he was a real Rambo, who wanted to be in the "real" thick of things. I could tell he was that type of macho guy, from his scowling, beefy face on the CNN pictures. Well, he got his wish. Even Rambo got shot in the third movie, but in real life, you die as a result of being shot. They should call Pat Tillman's army life "Rambo 4: Rambo Attempts to Strike Back at His Former Rambo 3 Taliban Friends, and Gets Killed."

But, does that make him a hero? I guess it's a matter of perspective. For people in the United States, who seem to be unable to admit the stupidity of both the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars, such a trade-off in life standards (if not expectancy) is nothing short of heroic. Obviously, the man must be made of "stronger stuff" to have had decided to "serve" his country rather than take from it. It's the old JFK exhortation to citizen service to the nation, and it seems to strike an emotional chord. So, it's understandable why Americans automatically knee-jerk into hero worship.

However, in my neighborhood in Puerto Rico, Tillman would have been called a "pendejo," an idiot. Tillman, in the absurd belief that he was defending or serving his all-powerful country from a seventh-rate, Third World nation devastated by the previous conflicts it had endured, decided to give up a comfortable life to place himself in a combat situation that cost him his life. This was not "Ramon or Tyrone," who joined the military out of financial necessity, or to have a chance at education. This was a "G.I. Joe" guy who got what was coming to him. That was not heroism, it was prophetic idiocy.

Tillman, probably acting out his nationalist-patriotic fantasies forged in years of exposure to Clint Eastwood and Rambo movies, decided to insert himself into a conflict he didn't need to insert himself into. It wasn't like he was defending the East coast from an invasion of a foreign power. THAT would have been heroic and laudable. What he did was make himself useful to a foreign invading army, and he paid for it. It's hard to say I have any sympathy for his death because I don't feel like his "service" was necessary. He wasn't defending me, nor was he defending the Afghani people. He was acting out his macho, patriotic crap and I guess someone with a bigger gun did him in.

Perhaps it's the old, dreamy American thought process that forces them to put sports greats and "larger than life" sacrificial lambs on the pedestal of heroism, no matter what they've done. After all, the American nation has no other role to play but to be the cheerleaders of the home team; a sad role to have to play during conflicts that suffer from severe legitimacy and credibility problems.

Matters are a little clearer for those living outside the American borders. Tillman got himself killed in a country other than his own without having been forced to go over to that country to kill its people. After all, whether we like them or not, the Taliban is more Afghani than we are. Their resistance is more legitimate than our invasion, regardless of the fact that our social values are probably more enlightened than theirs. For that, he shouldn't be hailed as a hero, he should be used as a poster boy for the dangerous consequences of too much "America is #1," frat boy, propaganda bull. It might just make a regular man irrationally drop $3.6 million to go fight in a conflict that was anything but "self-defense." The same could be said of the unusual belief of 50 percent of the American nation that thinks Saddam Hussein was behind Sept. 11. One must indeed stand in awe of the amazing success of the American propaganda machine. It works wonders.

Al-Qaeda won't be defeated in Afghanistan, even if we did kill all their operatives there. Only through careful and logical changing of the underlying conditions that allow for the ideology to foster will Al-Qaeda be defeated. Ask the Israelis if 50 years of blunt force have eradicated the Palestinian resistance. For that reason, Tillman's service, along with that of thousands of American soldiers, has been wrongly utilized. He did die in vain, because in the years to come, we will realize the irrationality of the War on Terror and the American reaction to Sept. 11. The sad part is that we won't realize it before we send more people like Pat Tillman over to their deaths.

Rene Gonzalez is a UMass graduate student.
David
Posts: 696
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:50 am
Location: Maryland/America

Postby David » Sat May 01, 2004 6:45 am

While I mostly agree with Edward Siad's (perhaps you have read him?) cultural criticism of how the non-western world is portrayed throughout the west and essentially disagree with emotive patriotism not grounded in firm rationalistic humanism, I can't help but laugh at the irony in the sensationalistic jingoism rife in the above post against the mainstream politics surrounding Tillman. It's a kind of "anti-Fox News" polar opposite, yet uses essentially the same tactics as the depraved news network of image and emotion-baiting. I fail to see the usefulness in the above post in terms of persuading anyone to a differing viewpoint from one that they already hold. The above post appears to me to be intellectual masturbation.

The erosion of the ideological hegemony of imperialist machismo as a result of the propaganda of state , corporate, and religious cultural elements does not take place as a result of the above post. To me, that would be the only useful purpose of the above statements; I do not see that end being served by such a post. Rather, the above post may even increase said ideological hegemony.

The above post, in its simplicity disguised in pop-psyche terminology almost appears "made up": a ploy by those of an imperialist bent to set up an ideological strawman that is easy to knock down, and keep "the flock" towards clearly imperialist machismo ends. That may be my mind playing tricks on me, the double irony, if that were the case would be even more entertaining. :lol:

It is true that, just as in the "Cold War", the "War on Terror" simply acts as an ideological shepard's crook to guide mass thinking towards acceptable imperialist aims and justifying a myriad number of occurances that have little to nothing to do with true "national security"- a phrase it self used in the same way.
User avatar
Sniper
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 2:11 am

Postby Sniper » Sat May 01, 2004 7:42 am

intellectual masterbation, very well said.
Old Texas saying: Never miss a good chance to shut up.
swymir
Posts: 1173
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 5:07 pm
Location: Cape May, New Jersey

Postby swymir » Sat May 01, 2004 11:00 am

Yeah that article just threw in a couple big word every line or two and figures that will do the job. I agree that this article doesn't do any real convincing and if I turned it in for an English grade I'd score worse than if I slammed my head into the keyboard (repeatedly for length).
"My mind works like lightning, one brilliant flash and it's gone."
User avatar
kroner
Posts: 1463
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:39 pm
Location: new jersey...

Postby kroner » Sat May 01, 2004 2:38 pm

Ok, well I don't think it was badly written and it did make some important points, regaurdless of whether you argee with them.

Now, as for the content: Anyone who gives their life volentarily in service of the country is of course going to be hailed as a hero by the government and anyone in support of it. But I think I would go even further to say that the person is a hero not only to those who support the administration, but those who support the system.
People in the armed forces deserves quite a bit of respect. They are necessary to the government or else it would fall apart. They fight and risk their lives for something they believe in, namely the American system. The administration that commands them may make bad decisions, but this only adds to the tragedy of a soldiers death. They die in vain, misused, betrayed. It's the government that spits on them. The soldiers are not part of the problem, they are more of the victims.
DOOM!
rklenseth
Posts: 4736
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:46 am

Postby rklenseth » Sun May 02, 2004 12:14 am

I love how this person sees Clint Eastwood movies and Rambo movies as propanganda. Rambo I can almost see but no. And Clint Eastwood is a big libertarian so nationalism wouldn't work. In fact, Clint Eastwood westerns, the man with no name trilogy etc..., go against the ideals of nationalism and centralized government so this perso obviously doesn't know what he/she is talking about.

This is just another great example of a bleeding heart liberal who doesn't know a damn thing about the world and sees every viewpoint not like his/her own to be conservative.

And now to Tillman. He gave up 3.6 million dollars which would be earned playing a game to fight for what he believed in and died in combat. It doesn't really matter what he fought for. How many people who trade a life of luxury to fight for what they beleived in? I think very few would do that and that alone makes him a hero.
User avatar
Mavsfan911
Posts: 726
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:26 am
Location: Montana

Postby Mavsfan911 » Sun May 02, 2004 2:38 am

*sighs* I dont care if he was a superstar, or a kid who grew up in the streets. I think anyone who puts their life on the line for this country is a hero. The thing I dont like is how he got more media than anyone else because he played football.
It was his decision, and he wanted to be doing something for the US, besides playing football. The fact that he was over there fighting for the USA means he should be considered a hero. Like I said, anyone over there is a hero, professional athlete, or the guy who packs groceries at the store...
太陽とビキニ
Sanglant
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:11 pm

Postby Sanglant » Mon May 03, 2004 5:04 am

I'd like to thank those of you who support the soldiers. I am currently awaiting surgery on my foot and them a few months after that I'm going to be deploying to Afghanistan. It's nice to know that there are people who care about the soldiers.
David
Posts: 696
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:50 am
Location: Maryland/America

Postby David » Mon May 03, 2004 5:52 am

Let me get this straight... the post was a ploy? Priceless :lol:

Unless I am reading something wrong... something seemed kind of hollow about it. Unless I am missing something...

Good luck, try not to get killed, and treat POWs as you would like to be treated... I'm sure the people in the U.S. military who abused the Iraqi and Afgahni POWs were a small minority... but that minority appeared to be getting their orders from somewhere above grunt level in the food chain... links to military intell are even being suggested, but not confirmed.
User avatar
nitefyre
Posts: 3528
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:29 am
Location: New York City
Contact:

Postby nitefyre » Mon May 03, 2004 11:48 pm

David wrote:Let me get this straight... the post was a ploy? Priceless :lol:

Unless I am reading something wrong... something seemed kind of hollow about it. Unless I am missing something...

Good luck, try not to get killed, and treat POWs as you would like to be treated... I'm sure the people in the U.S. military who abused the Iraqi and Afgahni POWs were a small minority... but that minority appeared to be getting their orders from somewhere above grunt level in the food chain... links to military intell are even being suggested, but not confirmed.


lol, I was eyeing this thread oddly. =O Good luck, don't get hurt.

Anyways, I think record wise the abuses are occuring in Iraq, not the Afghani theater. Its kinda sad how the general public seems to relatively not be paying much attention to 25th ID in Afghanistan, though from my personal view Afghanistan is the focal point of the WoT, not the detour.

I agree with Kroner, Soldiers are the victim, whether volunteer or draftee, because they are pretty much subject to what one or few men have to say. May I suggest All Quiet on the Western Front, and the section that deals with the soldier's politics. =?

Thats a classic book, ps. And speaking of which I find it interesting, I've caught a few Vietnam title console/cpu games coming out in the summer, sum of which are dealing directly with the war's negatives.
User avatar
Mavsfan911
Posts: 726
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:26 am
Location: Montana

Postby Mavsfan911 » Tue May 04, 2004 12:57 am

you mentioned the draft...thats been over since Vietnam hasnt it? i sure as hell hope so...
太陽とビキニ
User avatar
1959 Apache
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:37 am
Location: Milford Pennsylvania USA

Postby 1959 Apache » Tue May 04, 2004 1:25 am

You are correct about the Draft. It was stopped just about a year and a half before I would have been drafted, around the end of the Viet Nam War.

The term hero is widely over used. The fact that this guy lost his life did not make him special. Just going there at all is what was special. He was a Patriot in the truest sense of the word. He gave up the very thing he went to fight to protect, the American Dream. He had what most of us would want, but he wanted to give something back. Does this make him more patriotic than the unemployed poverty stricken enlistee? Maybe, but not much. Both have the same thing to lose, their lives.

For me, anyone who puts on the uniform and goes into battle, deserves all the respect that we can give them. I was lucky enough to just miss Viet Nam. Had that war gone on a little longer, I would have been in the Draft line.

All I have and will ever have is the direct result of the freedom that was granted me by all of the veterans who fought for it. For this, I have total respect for veterans, wherever they were stationed. DSeese, when you leave for Afghanistan, you will carry my respect with you and all those in the transport. You will be doing what I didn't have to do, and I will benefit.
If you drive an old Chevy, you're all right by me!
rklenseth
Posts: 4736
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:46 am

Postby rklenseth » Tue May 04, 2004 1:43 am

Good luck, David Seese and Melissa Seese as well!

Remember, if you catch Osama by chance, take a few pictures and post them somewhere for us to see. :D :wink:

Also, will you continue playing Cantr over there? I know of a guy that just left the Afghani Theater from fireflyfans.net that said they have pretty good internet over there. He was an Apache Driver.

Also, know that if you need some support while you are over then just hop on over here and we will give you as much comfort as the computer allows. You too, Melissa.

And another good luck for some more good luck. :D
David
Posts: 696
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:50 am
Location: Maryland/America

Postby David » Tue May 04, 2004 6:43 am

The alleged atrocities in Afghanistan (not Iraq) were not commited by U.S. forces per se. Rather, Afghan insurgents were supposedly turned over to native forces to torture for information purposes, so the allegations are slightly different.

In any case, it isn't very nice if the military doesn't allow soldiers to play Cantr after they get settled in a regular garrison schedule. :lol: I'm told that what must be fought the most in Iraq by many soldiers right now is bordem (most conflicts for that matter), with brief moments of terror in between. Cantr ought to help that somewhat.
west
Posts: 4649
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:23 pm

Postby west » Tue May 04, 2004 8:15 am

I had a brief moment of terror on cantr today...I was heart-poundingly afraid the guy I was trying to sabre would get away before I stabbed him. He didn't, though.
:mrgreen:
I'm not dead; I'm dormant.

Return to “Non-Cantr-Related Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest