Thoughts about democracy...

[Pirog]

I first intended to post this in the topic about the statue in Iraq, but I think it is better to start a new one.

I just want to know what the people here think about the way Americans and Europeans force democracy onto other countries.

I find the very act of declaring to a country that they MUST live under democratic rule quite undemocrathic.
Don't get me wrong...a functioning democracy is probably wanted bt everyone, but when large countries like USA and Russia struggles with making their democratic systems work, how can people in Iraq and other places even hope to have a fair and working election system?

The western democracies way of destroying all competition throws a dark shade over the free thinking we say we represent.
If a country starts to develop communistic ideas we are quick to make sure that their chances of success are spoiled, but what right do we have to do that?
The world has yet to see a functioning communistic country, but it took a very long time of brutal wars and blood shed before democratic ideas functioned well, and we still are still far from the true democratic ideals.

Well...I think I will leave it there for now.
It should be enough to start an interesting discussion.

[new.vogue.nightmare]

It's just how the world works.. To the victors belong the spoils. It isn't fair, it isn't necessarily always good. But whoever wins is going to end up pushing themselves on whatever they won.

[Meh]

Non-Democratic-like goverments need repaired by external forces when they spoil. They don't all spoil but once they do it take blood to fix.

Democratic-like goverments have a greater opprutunity for self repair though elections.

It is sort of like drug use. You can argue that drug use is fine. You can argue that if a person becomes self distructuve it is still fine. However if the person is one of those who becomes so out of control that they hurt others then it is up to the non-drug users and the ones work can keep thier habit in control to sort it out.

So the democracy pushing is really "Don't do drugs. I don't think you can handle it. I don't want to risk myself to sort it out. Again."

Now while democracy is pushed openly the lack of democracy is pushed subvertly. Monarchs and dictators are more easily controlled due to thier power addiction than democraies are.

[Nick]

@Pirog: I was going to say thats quite insightful for an American.
Then I realised you were from Sweden, which makes sense

[Indio no.9]

Hey lets change the subject, what do you do if you see George Bush lieing in a pool of blood in the midle of the road?..

...Laugh ... ..and reload!

[new.vogue.nightmare]

*sends that directly to the secret service*

With any luck, they'll send an agent over to snipe Indio and we won't have to worry about him ever again.

[Pirog]

Meh>

But that isn't the real reason why European and American countries have fought so hard against communism...or do you really think it is out of concern?

And I'm not so sure about democracies having greater oppurtunity to self repair...not in the cases when it goes so far as rigged elections and etc.

Nick>



Indio>

I meant this as a serious topic, so please don't do that again...

[Tolomus]

Pirog>
The methods that democratic countries use may be undemocratic, but IMHO the end justifies the means. The fact is, even though in some ways Democracy doesn't always work, it remains the least worst government in reality. BTW that wasn't bad grammar, it was an approximation of a quote from some guy who I can't remember!

Ghandi said "The spirit of democracy cannot be imposed from without. It has to come from within." I agree to an extent, but I feel that he war in Iraq was a last alternative, which was in a way inevitable. I am just glad it has been started now and not later.

[west]

Pirog>
The methods that democratic countries use may be undemocratic, but IMHO the end justifies the means. The fact is, even though in some ways Democracy doesn't always work, it remains the least worst government in reality. BTW that wasn't bad grammar, it was an approximation of a quote from some guy who I can't remember!

Ghandi said "The spirit of democracy cannot be imposed from without. It has to come from within." I agree to an extent, but I feel that he war in Iraq was a last alternative, which was in a way inevitable. I am just glad it has been started now and not later.

" Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried from time to time." --Winston Churchill

[Tolomus]

Thank you |west|, that's what I meant!

[west]

No prob.

your sig is familiar. Wheel of Time? Or what? I know I've read it in a book...SF or fantasy, I forget.

[Tolomus]

No... Dune. I'm reading it again (second time) at the moment, it remains probably my favorite Sci-Fi book ever. I love it's plot intricacy and it's many original idea's. Unfortunately I couldn't fit the entire quote in the 255 characters in the sig, I cut out a line. The entire thing is as follows:

"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. It is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. When the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."

[rklenseth]

Ah, yes, good old Paul Atreides (sp?).

[Meh]

Meh>

But that isn't the real reason why European and American countries have fought so hard against communism...or do you really think it is out of concern?

Orginally the communist countries belived in bringing a world revolution. When they couldn't do that they turned to invasion. When they couldn't do that resorted to cold war tactics. At each occassion the democaries followed suit. Acutally sometimes they led the progression into more subtle screwing around with nations and peoples. It was self-defense but sometimes was very preemptive.

Both side are resonisble for the sad state most regions are in today. Problem is the other side is gone leaving the democracies with the clean up.

Now that communist expanision is gone the only remaining threat is any situation that would give rise to a terrorist group such as contries who host though inaction and inability (Iraq) or deliberate (Afgan) these groups. Demorcratic nations tend to just ask for help (the former soviet stans) instead of saying the west will die a thosand deaths (Iraq).

And I'm not so sure about democracies having greater oppurtunity to self repair...not in the cases when it goes so far as rigged elections and etc.

OK. Totally disfunctional democracies are any better that despots.

But even at the level of the media led morass that passes for elections in most countires it works better than the transfer of power in practice.

Look at North Korea. Handed from father to son. No improvement.

Granted Bush's dad was the president.

However if Bush scares anyone just imgaine how scared you would be if he did not require a reelection. Would you want Bush until his children are old enough to take the throne? Or until one of his even more diabolical underlings gave him a "soviet style flu" and took things down even a darker path?

Soup is good food.
Eat your democracy before it gets cold.

[Tolomus]

Personally I liked the Harkonnen's, namely Feyd Rautha and Baron Vladimir Harkonnen. And Shaddam IV. And Hasimir Fenring. And the Sardaukar. Basically I liked all the people/idea's.