Religion

[Stan]

I think it is the same thing...of course it's over the top but you really don't have to be someone to understand or empathize with someone.

It's kind of like Green Peace getting involved in a Japanese fisherman's right to hunt whales.

I doubt there are many fishermen that are Japanese in Green Peace. I'm sure there are no whales.

Or it's kind of like Europeans getting involved in American politics...domestic politics like Church and State issues. It would be illogical to say, "Hey! You can't have an opinion on that because you're not an American!"

Would you argue that I shouldn't fight against slavery because I'm not a slave owner? Of course not. The reason slaves were set free in America was because non-slave owners took a stand for the human rights of human beings that were being mistreated. Likewise, human beings that are against abortion are people that don't like to see unborn human beings being mistreated by being killed.

[Hellzon]

Likewise, human beings that are against abortion are people that don't like to see unborn human beings being mistreated by being killed.

But they don't seem to mind mistreating pregnant women. That's what I don't grok. In one breath they talk about equal rights (I grok them that far.), and in the next they say that a woman has had a chance a life and does, indeed, have less rights than an unborn.

Man, I really should just snark and leave, rather than trying to reason.

/Hellzon - armless man at a clapping convention.

[formerly known as hf]

Point taken, but, still, it was obvious that slaves did not want to be slaves, thus there was a fairly clear opinion held by those affected. It is clear that domestic US policies affect foreign policies, and whale extinction affects the balance of the planet ecosystems.

But it's not as if pregnant women are a group of people who are disempowered to the extent slaves were. They can, and should be able to, decide for themselves. If they feel that abortion is wrong, then so be it. If not, they should not have the descision made for them, especially if the descision is made by men who can not emphasise with them or understand them to the extent that other women can.

For me, the right of the mother is paramount. I really dislike people describing a foetus or embryo as an 'unborn human'. Until an extended stage, it is but a part of the mother's body. It does not have an individual consciousness, and is unable to register individual stimuli.

[Stan]

I'm talking talking about the mother being the disenfranchised. I'm talking about the baby. I don't know when it has consciousness, but that is irrelevant. You'd have to say that's when it becomes a baby.

The point is, a fetus (whatever you want to call it) cannot argue on it's own behalf can it? So, it is left up so someone else.

[Joshuamonkey]

Presumably the Heavenly Father has never spoken to you directly on the subject of killing homosexuals (if I am wrong on this point, be sure to correct me), and I must therefore assume that any changes to the laws outlined in the Bible must have been passed down to you through your prophet? I have never read the Book of Mormon (although it is on my list of texts to read), and do not have a complete understanding of your sect. Am I correct in stating that the prophet you speak of is Joseph Smith? Are there any other prophets (besides the ones outlined in the Bible) that I should be aware of?

Joseph Smith was killed a long time ago... More than 100 years ago. The prophet is now Gordon B. Hinckley, who's 96.

When you start talking about fetuses being potential people, does that mean some potential person was killed if someone decides not to have sex, or to not go and rape some person?

[Joshuamonkey]

I think the chances of humanity having grasped the true nature of the universe and its creation and function are slim. If there were a grand truth, obviously it would be nice if everyone aligned their views with it, but so long as the existence of a Creator or Creators remains unprovable through means other than "just having faith," you will never see humanity agree on it.

I do not believe that any religion has it right. I'm not ruling out the existance of God and heavan, but I'm not convinced that they are absolute truths. If there is an almighty God, and he truly is all that is good, then by leading a good life, one should be deserving of entering his kingdom regardless of whether one worshipped him or believed in him. Any God that would punish a good person whose only crime was in not believing, is not a God that is worth spending eternity with, and is certainly not an example of a "perfect" being.

So no, I will not hang on to a religion "just in case" I'm wrong and there is a God. I will believe what I see. If he's real, God won't judge you by the number of times you go to church or pray in a certain direction or how many times you fasted. Acts of goodness are important, not acts of faith.

Yes! That is something my church believes as well.

[formerly known as hf]

Aside for the ethics of abortion, which I know we're never going to agree on, has anyone considered the practicalities of implementing anti-abortion laws?

[Hellzon]

Aside for the ethics of abortion, which I know we're never going to agree on, has anyone considered the practicalities of implementing anti-abortion laws?

Actually, some dude went to a pro-liver speech and asked the workers what they thought the punishment for a woman who went through abortion should be. Most were left speechless.

Don't have that article though, or I'd link. Pity.

/Hellzon - anti-liver. Die liver die!

[Nalaris]

Prison sentence, maybe? Death is obviously too much (we aren't living with the Mosaic law alone, after all).

[deadboy]

But isn't the whole idea of anti-abortion to give free-will? a) any way of thinking about abortion limits someones free will. I personally think that rather than having to spend the majority of your life caring for something unwanted, that isn't even fully formed yet, is a decision you should have the right to turn down. And b) jail is a stupid answer, because in jail you have less free will

[formerly known as hf]

First off. How do you stop those with the money travelling abroad to have the abortion done? You can't.

Those without the money to travel, will probably turn to illegal abortion. Which is going to be more unsafe than legal abortion.

It is true that the greatest proportion of abortions are asked for by underpriveleged and less wealthy families and mothers. Anti-abortion laws will only affect those who are already deprived, it will have no effect on those with money to spare.

Making something illegal hardly stops it from happening. even the fear of punishment, a jail sentence, doesn't stop things from happening.

Making abortion illegal will not make poeple think twice about it, nor will it heavily decrease the numbers, it will just happen in different, and possibly unsafe, ways.

Hence, it will create even greater inequality. Rather than planned parenthood being the right of every woman, it will be a privelege of those with the money.

[Nalaris]

This is an unfortunate truth. Tis' unfortunate that so few understand the basic immorality of abortions and, more over, of having unwanted babies.

[deadboy]

That is a stupid thing to say. You cannot say that other people do not relise something is immoral. That is your opinion. My opinion is that it is perfectly moral, and I could say just the same thing, it is a shame you do not think it is moral. But the problem with that statement is that it is wrong, it is not moral, neither is it immoral, morality is in the eye of the beholder, an opinion. Nothing can be truely wrong or right.

[Stan]

It's relative in the eye of the beholder maybe, but truly it isn't relative. There's right and there's wrong. Haven't we been down this path already?

I'm right and you can't argue it...because in my mind it's right. (that statement sounds silly)

I think you hit the nail on the head, though, Nalaris. The bigger question is why are people getting pregnant if they don't want to?

There are ways to avoid that aren't there?

[deadboy]

Stan.... that is a pretty ignorant thing to say, we have already been talking about rape pregnancys, poorer families which are more suspectable to unwanted pregnacies. It is quite easy to get accedently pregnant.

And what you said just proves that there is no problem with abortion from a rape pregnancy