Trouble In The Netherlands

[Schme]

What I said, AoM, was that orthodoxy does not mean the same thing wherever you apply it. I should think that is not to hard to understand. If you’ll look at 1# on your oh so precious list of definitions, it shouldn’t be too hard to see.

If something is fast, then it’s fast, no matter what it is. But the adjective of orthodox does not work the same way.


I will try to explain again to you what I mean. To say someone is an Orthodox Christian is completely meaningless as a solid adjective, because the definition of an orthodox Christian depends upon who you are asking, just like what people have different ideas about what makes a good leader. All the Christian denominations believe that they have the correct interpretation of the scripture, and therefore, each feels only those following their interpretation properly are orthodox.

Not a solid trait, despite what you’re dictionary may say.



And as you used the word, it does not make any sense. Firstly, you may have noticed that most of the world is not Catholic, and that the Catholic church follows it’s own beliefs, and so to say the Catholic church rolls with the crowd is blatantly untrue. And you blame the Catholic church for adhering to the traditional values of the Catholic church? What the hel.l! That’s a very foolish thing to be upset about, to see the least. It makes sense to say you dislike the beliefs and values of the Catholic church, but to say you dislike the Catholic church because it acts like itself does not make any sense at all. Do you see what I mean? Maybe not, it’s a bit confusing. So if not, please say so. I’m not sure if I’ve been to clear, although I’ve tried to be.

And if you feel like a six year old, there’s nothing I can do for you.

Glad you don’t find me patronizing, though.








Never head of straw man fallacy, although it sounds to me like a very good idea.

But I had not at all meant to imply that you had said this (as, like you say, you didn’t.). I had just wanted to bring it up. Looking at it now, it does look as though I said you said it. But I hadn’t meant to. My apologies.

………………..Although, I still won the argument.









(Christ, man, I joking!)

[Pie]

WHAT ARGUMENT!!!! WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???? WHAT IS THE DESCUTION ABOUR!!?!?!?!

H.F, pleas split this whole discution to a different thread so i can understand what the argument is about.

[AoM]

It's okay Pie. There wasn't really an arguement. Schme continues to assume and put words in my mouth, when he really shouldn't.


Schme. Listen (or read) very carefully.

I grew up Catholic, I went to Church, and I learned a lot about the Catholic faith and world view.

The orthodox view of the Catholic Church is one that is strongly rooted in the Catholic dogma.

Orthodoxy is like pornography... you know it when you see it.

I think you like to put way too much spin on definitions, because I'm fairly sure anyone else reading what I posted understood perfectly well what I was saying.

The straw man fallacy is bad, because it's a fallacy. A flaw in logic.

However, you've decided to continue with it apparently because you now insinuate that I said the Catholic church "rolls with the crowd."

You also claim that I am blaming the Catholic Church for following its own values. Which of course, I never did either.

All I said was that I disagreed with the views of Catholicism, particularly those Catholics who are hard-liners or "orthodox."

By extension, I've become disenchanted with extremist or orthodox views of religion in general.

I think understanding the universe through logic and reason, believing what you see, not seeing what you believe, is the right way to do things.

[Pie]

By extension, I've become disenchanted with extremist or orthodox views of religion in general.

WHOA!!! I AM INSULTED!!! Not all churches are Orthadox (thank god) And not all religions are orthidox either. You can't say that religion in general is orthadox, witch i THINK you said right there.

I don't know if I am understanding you right, BUT IF YOU ARE CALLING MY CHIRCH ORTHADOX.....!!!!!!!

*takes slow deep breaths, slow deep breaths*

I think that's what schem was trying to say, Not all chirches are orthadox, And religion isn't generaly orthadox. In fact, there might, JUST MIGHT, be an orthadox chirch out there with cool, god loving music, that is NOT gorrilas or Coldplay, (nomater how much i like Coldplay, or how much i HATE gorrilas. And i am not saying that they are god hating, just that they don't love god.)

[Nixit]

Pie!!!! That is not what he was saying! He was saying that he particularly does not like churches that Have extreme beliefs (orthodox), or something along that lines. Not that every church is orthodox.

Right?

[Racetyme]

Pie, he is saying he dislikes orthodox religion. How old are you, it says it right there!

[AoM]

Thank you Nixit and Racetyme... I was beginning to think that I was typing in tongues...

Pie. I never said that all religions are orthodox. READ what I say. Don't twist my words around, just take them at face value.

And... I don't...quite... know what all this music talk is about... Coldplay has some nice songs, and I'm a fan of Gorillaz' "Clint Eastwood"... but I think I'll end my post with some good ol' Billy Joel:

"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints... 'cause sinners are much more fun... darling only the good die young!"

Peace out my brothers and sisters.

[Antichrist_Online]

Back on the original topic. I think they should have a right to ban the burkas because they are a cultural thing not a relgious thing, however I still think that that legislation is wrong, as wrong as banning people from following the death god in India.

On the idea of religions, I've never had a problem with extreme religious veiws. I'm a pagan at a catholic school, yet my beliefs haven't effected my education in anyway. All the relgious parts were given as "Catholics believe..." or "Christians believe..." The only time my religion has came up other than in disscussions (where everyone is questioned on thier beliefs), is with the new headmaster who is very conservative catholic, and kept saying "God gave you your talents" and "God helped you succeed" which is the wrong thing to say, and he wouldn't say it to a muslim or sikh, yet he assumes my religion as christian because of my race. Sharp fixed that with a length rant on how it was me that made me as successful and about my beliefs in the many gods I believe to exsist.

[Schme]

AoM, I really do not think that you understand. (Pie, you should read this too this too, as your not really seem to be getting it either. Racetyme, you too.)

What orthodoxy means is the close and proper follow of dogma. You can’t be orthodox without following the dogma. That’s what it’s about, that’s it’s definition. I don’t think you get what it means.


Orthodoxy is not like pornography, and again, I’ll tell you why. Orthodoxy means the close following of the faith, to follow their “official views” so to speak. But not all religions “official views” are the same. Therefore, what is orthodox varies from faith to faith.

I really don’t think you get it.

You continually talk about the catholic churches “orthodox views.” That makes no sense. To them, it is orthodox. To a protestant, or a member of the Orthodox Church (which just calls itself that for posterity, just like MC Don Cohito calls himself the greatest MC.) they are not.

If someone did not consider their own views (religious) Orthodox, that would be the equivalent of saying “My views are not correct.”

As for your precious “straw man fallacy”, you can say that my logic is flawed all you like, but that doesn’t make it so.

You say I’m putting words in your mouth by saying that you said catholics are robotic followers. I have already pointed out to you very clearly that I did not say you said that (and if you’d just read back you’d see that that is truth.) and yet you continually say that I said it. It does seem to me that it is you who is putting words in my mouth.



Blaming the Catholic church for following it’s own values. I say that because you continually say that you left the church because of it’s orthodox views. The only orthodoxy the catholic church can have is catholic orthodoxy. That’s the only thing possible. If the Catholic church followed orthodox hindu beliefs, it wouldn’t be called the catholic church.



Understanding the universe for logic and reason. Well good for you, bud. But here’s the thing. Unlike yourself, I (aswell as many many other religious people) have studied the holy scriptures of my church, and I have found them to contain (in fact, be primarily based upon) logic and reason. The parts that are not logic and reason are for the most part the avocation of compassion (which I fell is rather reasonable).



And I’d be careful about comparing religious orthodoxy to pornography. I really would. Some people are devote followers and believers in things other than the logic and reason cult, and to associate them with pornography is somewhat insensitive if you ask me.



By the way, I like Billy Joel too. In fact, that one of my favorite songs since when I was small.


But I really don’t think you should take a catchy song as absolute truth just because it’s good. Firstly, that’s illogical, and one would have to have pretty bad reasoning skills to do that. But secondly, it just isn’t truth. I can tell you from personal experience.

Here’s an example. There is a guy I used to know. A nice guy, a fun guy, right? Pretty religious too. Went to prayer every Friday. Except the thing is, guy was a pimp. He had three women, who he worked like dogs. He set strict amounts that he wanted from each of them every week, and if they couldn’t come up with them, he smacked them around. He passed them out to his friends, and he took them whenever he wanted. He was making big money, living the high life. People we’re afraid of this guy. Violent temper. He had big rep in his neighborhood. Guess what? He’s dead. Last month, some guy drove up to his corner wasted him. Guy flatlined. Picked two slugs out of him at the morgue. Twenty seven years old.

That’s just one of many personal anecdotes I could give you, and one of millions of examples I could set fourth.



And besides, that song was talking about martyrs, not just good people who died young.


Peace be to you too, brother.





As for burkas. You could say it’s a “cultural thing.” But the reason it is a cultural thing is because it was created because of an interpretation of The Straight Path. Religion is a huge part of culture. And you may think they should have the right, but according to their own rules, they don’t, and yet they’re doing it anyways.


I really thinks it a bit unfair to think that your headmaster thought you we’re catholic because of your race. If I we’re the headmaster of a catholic school, especially in England, I would expect that my students we’re catholic. I think it’s not a stretch to say that he probably assumed you we’re catholic because you attended the school.




To tell you the truth, I don’t think I’ve met all that many neo pagans. It does sound like an interesting concept, although “pagan” is not really a very specific thing, as it was used to refer to “people who aren’t Christian/Jewish”, which was a lot of people, even limited to just Europe. So to say you’re a pagan doesn’t really tell me anything.

It’s not race that matters in religion, especially not Catholicism. You may have noticed that there are Catholics from every race, and not just white people. If, say, I ran a Catholic school and a black muslim guy came there to study, I would probably assume he was Catholic. There’s no way for me to know that he wouldn’t be, unless he tells me. And if he told me in a disrespectful or arrogant way, I’d probably slap him upside the head.


I think the only time I’ve heard of a neo pagan around my neighbhourhood (that is to say, doing anything interesting so as to have them talked about as a neo pagan) was when these guys went crazy at the train station and got in a fight with some MCE guys. Then the MCE guys came back with some P.O.I guys and they beat them senseless (if they weren’t already).

[Racetyme]

Schme, get a life. I burned out on your post after one paragraph.

[Nick]

Schme... I don't think Nick is saying that people convert because of peer pressure. They are merely that religion because their parents were. That is basically what he's been saying I think.

Bingo. I don't appreciate being called idiotic for my views, Schme. If you didn't understand my post, but this 14 year old did, who's the idiot?

And what I am saying is that it is rediculous to suggest a someone is not a true believer just because they were brought up to be one. Someone brought up with to believe certain things is just as faithful, if not more faithful, than a convert.

But the point is, if your parents were Buddhist, you'd probably be Buddhist. Yet whatever you are, your religion is "right", everyone else's is "wrong". People are Christian because their parents are, and their parents are, all the way back to when Constantine decided Christianity would be the best religion to lead his Empire under. People who say "well, Christianity is the most popular so it's gotta be the right one... billions of people can't be wrong"... it just goes to show how much the Roman empire's influence on religion has carried over to today's society. If Constantine had decided that Islam was the way to go, Christians would be a minoirity, if not considered a cult, if there would be any Christians whatsoever.

Pie!!!! That is not what he was saying! He was saying that he particularly does not like churches that Have extreme beliefs (orthodox), or something along that lines. Not that every church is orthodox.

Again, AoM makes a comment and only Nixit seems to understand it.
Man, what do they teach you in your school? How to like... read and comprehend?
Crazy idea!

Schme, get a life. I burned out on your post after one paragraph.

Go to Nixit's school, maybe you can learn to read. It's not hard.

[Racetyme]

Meh, or I could just be kick ass at reading and too lazy and uninterested in the topic to read his long winded rant.

[Nixit]

To tell you the truth, I don’t think I’ve met all that many neo pagans. It does sound like an interesting concept, although “pagan” is not really a very specific thing, as it was used to refer to “people who aren’t Christian/Jewish”, which was a lot of people, even limited to just Europe. So to say you’re a pagan doesn’t really tell me anything.

Anywho, I don't really think that's true. A Muslim is not considered Pagan (I don't think), and I believe that was only true back in the day of the Romans... where all the Europeans really knew about were those. And I believe Paganism is very Nature oriented, in fact I believe that the tree from Christmas came from a Pagan tradition, except that the Pagans burned the tree, and today we just use lights. Is that right?

[Nick]

:D

To tell you the truth, I don’t think I’ve met all that many neo pagans. It does sound like an interesting concept, although “pagan” is not really a very specific thing, as it was used to refer to “people who aren’t Christian/Jewish”, which was a lot of people, even limited to just Europe. So to say you’re a pagan doesn’t really tell me anything.

Anywho, I don't really think that's true. A Muslim is not considered Pagan (I don't think), and I believe that was only true back in the day of the Romans... where all the Europeans really knew about were those. And I believe Paganism is very Nature oriented, in fact I believe that the tree from Christmas came from a Pagan tradition, except that the Pagans burned the tree, and today we just use lights. Is that right?

I thought being Pagan just meant polytheism?
*checks*

pa·gan

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.

Yeah, I'm sort of right.

[Nixit]

Oh. I see... hm....