Religion

[Mykey]

I recommend to you to visit a site on which there are many articles on this question.

[Dee]

To me, and all of the other Muslims, the belief of God's existence comes firstly from faith, then comes our holy book, the Qur'an. We see the book as a book that has a lot of miracles, and a lot of prophecies, some of them have came true, and the rest is yet to come true.

God's existence cannot be proved through scientific theories. It's whether you believe in Him or not.

[Nalaris]

If you could prove or disprove God, it would defy our very presence on this Earth and, logically following that, our entire physical existence.

Of course we're going to sin. If God didn't think we were going to sin, why would he put Christ through everything that he did? There wouldn't be any point at all.

And West...You can have whatever opinion you want, just don't swear at me.

[Stan]

I'm going to say this one more time. That's inference, not evidence. You use examples from life to INFER that there is a God. And yes, there are things that can be used to infer the existence of God, but for the love of all that is holy (and if God didn't want us to be logical he wouldn't have given us brains and free will), don't call it evidence. It's not.

That's not true, actually. People testifying of an experience IS evidence. If you've ever watched a trial in the US you'll know that all evidence is NOT physical evidence.

Personal testimony alone is used to prove points all the time. In fact, often, when you're reading about physical evidence on the internet or in a magazine you are actually hearing personal testimony to evidence. Unless you're holding the evidence in your hand then you're basing your belief or disbelief in personal testimony.

You make a decision on whether you believe the source then decide whether you believe the testimony ie evidence.

Personal testimony is evidence and that includes testimony about God and his existence. The fact that millions claim to have experienced God and His power lends credibility to the claim.

Therefore, evidence exists that God exists. I still haven't seen evidence that he doesn't.

[Nalaris]

Couldn'tve but it better myself. And I've tried.

[Jack Dudeman]

Erm... That means that there's evidence of 'aliens' visiting Earth, sea monsters, dragons, cyclops, and countless other imaginary things. People believing in something, no matter how many believers there are, isn't evidence of it's existence.

Imagine a tribe that worships a sun god. They might present evidence of their god's existence by saying 'We all believe that he exists, and there is the sun. It comes up everyday to nourish our crops, and sets every evening to cool us off. Hence, there is evidence of his existence. How much more evidence do you need?"

How many people believing in something does it take before you can say definitively that there is proof of it's existence? One, two, one hundred, three hundred million, six trillion? Where do you draw the line?

I don't believe that there is evidence proving or disproving a god. And like I said earlier, IF man can actually prove definitively that there is a superhuman being controlling everything, then the burden of proof for such an idea lies on the believers, not the skeptics.

[deadboy]

Actually, there is evidence that god doesn't exist. The bable fish

Hitchhikers guide anyone?

[AoM]

There's a reason why juror's will discount personal testimony over physical evidence: human error.

An eyewitness can be mistaken, or misinterpret, or exaggerate. Many of the cases in the US that convicted innocent men of murder or rape that have later been successfully appealed with the arrival of better DNA evidence analysis are often in direct dispute with the personal testimony of witnesses. Which is a better measure of the truth? The court system seems to prefer scientific process and physical evidence.

A special feeling of faith for one person, or the perception, analysis, and conclusion that something is a miracle is not solid evidence for the existance of a higher being. Everything is funneled through human perception, and therefore subject to opinion and bias. Even science is not exact for this reason. But at least science has set up a higher standard of verification for itself.

[Dee]

Again, He answered my prayers

And I'm so thankful and grateful!!

[Stan]

Erm... That means that there's evidence of 'aliens' visiting Earth, sea monsters, dragons, cyclops, and countless other imaginary things. People believing in something, no matter how many believers there are, isn't evidence of it's existence.

Imagine a tribe that worships a sun god. They might present evidence of their god's existence by saying 'We all believe that he exists, and there is the sun. It comes up everyday to nourish our crops, and sets every evening to cool us off. Hence, there is evidence of his existence. How much more evidence do you need?"

How many people believing in something does it take before you can say definitively that there is proof of it's existence? One, two, one hundred, three hundred million, six trillion? Where do you draw the line?

I don't believe that there is evidence proving or disproving a god. And like I said earlier, IF man can actually prove definitively that there is a superhuman being controlling everything, then the burden of proof for such an idea lies on the believers, not the skeptics.

I didn't say it was definitive proof...I said it was evidence. Talk about a human filter. Just hear what you want.

I don't believe in Big Foot, but personal witness and testimony to sighting IS evidence, whether it supports my belief or not. You are not only wrong, but you're trying to redefine the definition of evidence by trying to make it into something that is proof. They aren't the same thing.

I'm a patient man. I testify to what I've seen. You are speaking from "non-experience". You can't know what I've experienced or what I've seen. Your argument is hollow and wrong.

You and I will both have our "definitive proof" someday. You might not believe itn now, but it won't change the fact.

Until that day, I'll continue to believe based on what I've seen. I will keep praying and my prayers will still be answered. My prayers will make this life on earth better for me. I'll work hard in faith on earth and store up treasures in heaven. I'll continue to testify on earth and be blessed for it.

God will continue to bless you because that's what he does. But, there will be times in your life that will not be pleasant (same with me). Those are the times that he's pulling on you to come near. You can ignore them and miss the blessing or hear and turn toward him. I hope you turn toward him someday. You'll be glad that you did.

I don't know anyone that lives for God that wished they didn't. But, I know plenty of people that live for themselves and wish they could change their life somehow. It's amazing to me to see people search for something counterfeit when the real thing is right there.

[Jack Dudeman]

Again, I don't care if you think that God is going to smite me and send me to hell when I die. You're not the only person that thinks that, based on my lack of religion.

And you should be clear about what you mean by evidence and proof. These words are subjective, and can be confused. If I claim that an invisible pink unicorn is responsible for the weather on Earth, then there is evidence of it's existence. You can't disprove it. No matter what science or evidence you come up with, I can just dismiss it and say that you don't understand.

And before you judge me, Stan, you should know that I believed in God and worshipped him and testified to his existence for many years. I went to church regularly, and was sure that my beliefs were right and everyone that disagreed was wrong. More recently in my life, I've reevaluated my beliefs, and I am ashamed of many things that I said and did to other people based on my religious beliefs.

Church and religion can be good for people, but in my opinion, they have done more harm than good. If you love Jesus, good for you, but realize that he might not have existed, and everything written about him might be wrong, or inaccurate.

And why do you need evidence of God's existence anyway? You believe in him, so he must exist.

God will continue to bless you because that's what he does. But, there will be times in your life that will not be pleasant (same with me). Those are the times that he's pulling on you to come near. You can ignore them and miss the blessing or hear and turn toward him. I hope you turn toward him someday. You'll be glad that you did.

And keep this holier-than-thou attitude to yourself. I'm not interested in what you think god is saying to me. If there is something that he wants me to hear, I'll hear it. He's God after all. Pff.

I don't know anyone that lives for God that wished they didn't. But, I know plenty of people that live for themselves and wish they could change their life somehow. It's amazing to me to see people search for something counterfeit when the real thing is right there.

I don't know why you think that people without your god only live for themselves. Why do you assume that I'm unhappy or am living a selfish life? Just because someone hasn't found Jesus, or doesn't believe in your god, or doesn't testify to some kind of religion DOES NOT make them any less of a person than you. It doesn't make them a bad person, a naive person, a stupid person, or anything else that you're not. An atheist/agnostic person is just like you. We are searching for answers to life's mysteries and trying to be good people. I myself try to be as good of a person that I can be. I'm getting tired of people putting athiest/agnostics down for simply not believing the things that they believe.

Stan, can we just agree to disagree? You have your beliefs and I have my own. We are clearly never going to see eye to eye on this issue. I want this to be a fruitful discussion, but the antagonism between the two of us is clouding the issue.

[deadboy]

I'll work hard in faith on earth and store up treasures in heaven.

This here is one of my least favorite things about people who claim to be highly religious. Most people who do arn't actually particularly religious because they think it is the right thing to do, and are good people, they think that they'll get something out of it at the end.

I am religious, yes, I'm christian, but I don't go spouting out junk about christianity to random people, I don't think that that will solve anything, and is just more likely to annoy them. I also don't like churches particularly, I think that religion should be personal, and not some big ceromony that is just intended to shame those that arn't being "religious" by giving them sermons until they become religious, as that doesn't work either.

I am religious, but I'm not going to boast about it or try to force it upon other people, believe what you want to believe, because you've got just as high a chance as believing in the truth through whatever you believe as with what I believe. I'm also not going to say but what if, because what if -I'm- wrong, there's just as much chance in that.

Oh and I'm most definitely not going to say that I'm going to be treated better in heaven than you and that you'll go to hell, because that is just arrogance, I choose to believe because I think it is right, not to gain anything from it.

Think what you want of what I just said, because whatever you get from this thread you should at least discover one thing. You are never going to be able to persuade someone one way or another because you don't know that you are right, and nobody will ever know what is right until they die.

[Joshuamonkey]

eh, I'm leaving. *gets his email off this thread* too time consuming, still pointless.

[AoM]

Stan isn't saying that Jack is going to Hell. Nor is he saying that he's going to get treated better in Heaven. You guys are twisting his words.

[Nalaris]

People testifying of an experience IS evidence.

That means there's evidence for "aliens" visiting earth...dragons...and countless other imaginary things.

Funny, you were the one who said you believed in aliens and dragons, right?

And there is, in fact, evidence if someone has had a personal experience with the Sun God, i.e. seen him. Then there is evidence that he exists. This does not mean it's true, but either the testifier believes it is or he finds reason to lie about it.

Now, why would several thousand or maybe even several million people all find reason to lie about this one thing? Almost impossibly improbable. So clearly there is some force or another giving people reason to believe this (or lie about it, but I personally know that isn't the case...unless I'm lying to you, in which case I would've lied to you about my religion too. Unless you have personal testimony, the whole thing rather annoyingly leads you in circles.). Is this force God? Find out for yourself.

I don't care if you think that God is going to msite me and send me to hell when I die.

That's not what Stan said...

You can miss the blessing or hear and turn toward him...You'll be glad that you did.

Please, answer what is written, now your predisposed concepts based on what you know about other Christians.

And keep this holier-than-thous attitude to yourself...

What attitude?

...If there is something that he [God] wants me to hear, I'll hear it.

.
God badly wants you to hear and listen to what we're saying. You aren't listening. You aren't considering any of it for a minute. Maybe you were right to leave the version of Christianity behind because God needed you to join the true Church of Christ? Because nothing is more evil than something holy that the Devil has perverted to make evil.

[qoute="Jack Dudeman"]Why do you assume that I'm unhappy or am living a selfish life?[/quote]
He didn't.

Just because someone hasn't found Jesus, or doesn't believe in your god, or doesn't testify to some kind of religion DOES NOT make htem any less of a person than you. It doesn't make htem a bad person, a naive person, as tupid person, or anything else that you're not.

Well, at least we agree on something.

Stan, can we just agree to disagree?

I can't speak for Stan, but I don't think it would be right for me to walk away from someone still stumbling in darkness without doing everything in my power to try and help.

Actually, there is evidence that God doesn't exist. The bable fish.

Heck yes!* Go Hitchhikers Guide!

*=This reference, being to a fictional animal, does not imply that the author is willing to forgo his religious principles for the sake of some humor, nor does it mean that the author is not convinced his religion is correct.**

**=Note that this does not mean that the author hasn't had his doubts concerning his religion and has, in fact, looked into the possible truths in Islam, Atheism, and even aliens, but has discarded them in favour of his current religion, which he see's to be more true as far as he can tell.