WHY THE INJUSTIS

[formerly known as hf]

Your probably an evolutionist becous evolution was drummed into your head when you were in school. And evolution has even less profe than the bible.

No. At school I learnt about evolution, about Christianity, Islam, Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism. I also have a keen interest and knowledge of ancient Greek religion.

What I have been able to do is amke a choice, which is to see that evolutionary and other scientific theory has much more proof and real basis than any religion. I have made that choice myself, no one told me to make it, or made any indication that I should believe something else. I am confident that the choice is mine, and I feel safe and comfortable in that choice. Can you say the same for your beliefs pie? If you did decide to believe in scientific theory, or another religion, and this is clearly a hypothetical question, are you sure that you are in an environment whee that decision would be respected, and encouraged, as it is your own decision? Or would others frown upon the decision because it is not the 'right' choice in their eyes? Hence making you doubt your own choices?

Your statement that the Bible has more scientific proof than other theories is also wrong. Science has prooved that certain 'miracles' are easily re-produced through naturally occuring phenomena. Indeed, the flood, one of the major miracles, is highly contested both in arachaeology and geology.

Your distortion and blatant abuse of archaeological research is deeply wrong and disgusting to many of the archaeologists out there. What science - namely archaeology - has done is proove that certain historical basings of the testament - old and new - are true. The kingdoms named, the kings and queens, certain locations and historical events have been show to be true. This does not mean that the WHOLE Bible is true. Archaeology also prooves the history behind Islamic scripture, Hindu myths, it also shows a firm basis for many ancient Greek Myths - does that mean that I should erect a shrine to Zeus?

[Pirate Lass]

Doot doot doot

I make a point of avoiding debates about politics or religion, people get way too worked up about it as we all have our own very strong opinions. Alot of times we hold to them so dearly that we have trouble being objective to others.

So that said - smile!

*takes her little pagan butt off to another thread*

[Pie]

You know, if you would try to prove the bible rogn, i, with a good internet search, could probably turn it around.

Such as, if we wre to debait jesus.. WHOA. You would get SO burned.

Also, I have proof that one of your points are rong.

The thing is, the bible has so many actual HISTORICAL texts in ancient greek, its.. well.. actually.. it is pretty funny.

There are estimated to be bout 500 scripts of the Iliad and odysy in ancient greek.

But, tere is estimated to be OVER 5000 scripts of the gosple. Now, all of these scripts CORISPOND to one onother, thus making the bible ALOT easyer to just go back to a main language.

And another thing, The iliad was made estimated 1000 years after its original occerance, wile the GOSPLES were made... bout 2-6 years after its occerance. So just saying that it is a myth CANOT BE RIGHT. Mythological tampering DOSENT HAPPEN IN 2 YEARS. Not even 50 YEARS. Maby 100, if your payd to do it. But were the apostles payd? NOOOOOOOO. They werent.

Also, the scientific proof that such "Miracles" can actually happene JUST STREANGHTEN MY ARGUMEnT!!!!! It proves that it can happen, thus making it more posible to happen. thus making it TRUE.

[formerly known as hf]

Why the contstant comparison to the Illiad? No one here has said the Bible is myth. No one here has said anything about the Illiad. Do you keep referring to it simply because that's the one argument you have (been taught?)?

The science I was talking about says that the 'miracles' in the Bible are nothing more than natural phenomena - it does not say they are miracles - because that would mean they were created by God - which science says they weren't.
Again, you are twisting scientific research and knowledge, in utterly incomprehensible ways.

[swymir]

Why the contstant comparison to the Illiad? No one here has said the Bible is myth. No one here has said anything about the Illiad. Do you keep referring to it simply because that's the one argument you have (been taught?)?

The science I was talking about says that the 'miracles' in the Bible are nothing more than natural phenomena - it does not say they are miracles - because that would mean they were created by God - which science says they weren't.
Again, you are twisting scientific research and knowledge, in utterly incomprehensible ways.

That was exactly what I was attempting to eventually alude too.

I am not going to say that what was said in the bible didn't happen. I am saying that it is not an act of god which made them happen. For example the entire story of Mosses and his plagues can be explained by a very large volcano erupting miles away, including the parting of the seas which would have been a direct result of a tsunami (the water retreats for a few minutes and then sweeps back in with a rush.

And there is no doubt that the apostles were recieving great deals of money from their followers. It is a common catholic practice to demand tribute for "enlightenment". So it is a possibility that they exaggerated a few things in order to gain more support.

[Stan]

I haven't had a chance to read everything since I last posted...I'm readong this on my Blackberry which is hard to read, especially when I drive, but I did see the post from HF.

I want to make one point. Whether or not God used "natural" means to part the Red Sea or not, I don't knbow for sure. But I do know this.

If God is God and he created all of this He could easily part a sea or cause plagues. The "natural" occurance explanation is only a theory. To me it sounds like a creation of someone who finds it hard to believe that Moses was a prophet. I find it hard to swallow that some guy walking around a desert could predict a volcano eruption before it occurred when we can't do it effectively in 2006 AD. I also find it hard that the Red Sea opened up just when it needed to for Moses to cross.

Either way, God created the natural occurance or He did it another way, it doesn't matter really. His purpose was achieved as it always will be.

[Stan]

As for the apostles issue...what you are claiming doesn't hold up.

Ten of the apostles were later martyred. In a conspiracy someone always talks. In this case no one ever said it was a lie. In fact, almost all of them died for truth.

Written witness accounts are almost alweays accepted as historical evidence. What other evidence do you think should exist? You have eyewitness accounts from people who died for what they saw.

Then there's a man named Saul who killed Christians himself and was struck blind on a road to kill another Christian. He claims he saw Jesus and from that day on was a believer. He became Paul...St. Paul and it is commonly believed that he also died still claiming Christ.

The evidence is in front of you. Everyone has a chance to accept it, seek more information, or reject it. Rejecting something that could have such high stakes without seeking all possible information seems foolish to me.

I sought more information and now I believe. I've witnessed miracles. I know they exist. If you don't believe its possible you will always look for an explanation. Whether the explanation makes complete sense or not won't matter.

I have no personal stake in you or your eternity. I wouldn't lie to you. I could be completely wrong but my experience tells me I'm right.

[KiNG KiLL]

Stan, I would like to hear more about the miracles you've witnessed. If they aren't too personal to you, that is?


The bible is written by man, yes? The bible has been translated countless times, yes? If god intended me, as a human being, to know of his ideas and rules, why doesn't he give me access to them in a way that would make me believe of his existance? Sure, he doesn't want/need to show himself, I am a free man with a free mind. But we all know that the bible was written by man, yes? And nowhere in the bible is the word "church" or appointing "holy men" (priests) described. Now, is it so hard to understand that I can not fully accept, nor believe, in what the church and priests tells me about Jesus and christianity? I do not believe in another man's word, unless I personally believe it to be true. And nothing... NOTHING... in this world has ever struck me to believe in god, and especially not jesus. I don't deny their existance, nor can I believe in it, because I do not know. You see, I can not believe in something that has never touched my soul. If god wanted man to think for himself, to find jesus and the answer within, why are we listening to another man's word? Why can you not find it yourself? Did god intended us to gather up and convince each other about what to believe? Did he intended us to be told by the people who brings up up what to belive in? if so... how can anyone of us point the finger in any direction and say something is wrong to do, in the name of jesus? I mean, if Jesus speaks to me and says "Kill your neighbour. Now." Would it be wrong for me to do so? No, Jesus told me so, it can't be wrong, right? Well, it would go against the ten commandments, you might say... then I ask you this, do you believe in EVERYTHING in the bible? Why should you? Why do you look down on the scientology? Their beliefs, no matter how crazy they are, are also based on a book. Why can't the writer be right, and whoever wrote the bible be wrong? They are both books, written be someone who wanted people to be affected by their words. Why is one book more "true" than the other? As I said earlier, the bible is written by the hand of man, yes?

[Pie]

Why the contstant comparison to the Illiad? No one here has said the Bible is myth. No one here has said anything about the Illiad. Do you keep referring to it simply because that's the one argument you have (been taught?)?

The science I was talking about says that the 'miracles' in the Bible are nothing more than natural phenomena - it does not say they are miracles - because that would mean they were created by God - which science says they weren't.
Again, you are twisting scientific research and knowledge, in utterly incomprehensible ways.

Was it not in here that somone tryed to make the translation of the bible fals? Never the les... THE ILIAD WAS THE GREEK BIBLE. Literaly THE GREEEK BIBLE. And the iliad was writtin 1000 YEARS AFTER ITS OCCERANCE. Thus making anything posible. Making it posible for it to be intyerly fals, and yet, troy is said to be here, some Archeologists take the battle for reality.
Also, Do you know EXACTLY HOW MUCH CHANSE IT IS FOR THAT TO HAPPEN? Ok, one example is, when the Hithites(I think) Took the ark, they took it to certain citys, then those citys were striken by a plage. Do you think it is posible for a plage to come EXACTLY(Within a 2 day incubation period) TO ARIVE AT THOSE EXACT CITYS???

as for the next argument...

For example the entire story of Mosses and his plagues can be explained by a very large volcano erupting miles away, including the parting of the seas which would have been a direct result of a tsunami (the water retreats for a few minutes and then sweeps back in with a rush.

Nope. Witch lake did moses cross? NOT THE MEDEERANIAN SEA. You really think a tital wave could have caused all of that? ON A RIVER? Now, when a tsunamy comes, it DOSENT FALLOW THE RIVER. NO, rivers are 1 flowing the OPOSIT DIRECTION and 2 To shallow. Unles it was 90 FEET TALL(Maby I''m exagdurating) DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME that that is possible.

Also, exactly how long did it take for the tsunamy to reach the places it reached in the resent earthquake? HOURS. And that was a pretty far length away. (Before it died out, that is) And how far is it frome the greek islands to Egypth? Hours, maby. And witch plague was last? And when did the isrealites go? And was that lake conected to the medeteranian sea?

And also, even if the tsunamy did happen,Comon, the isrealites went out at the EXACT PERFICT TIME. Now, don't you think that god could have used nature in a supernatural way? Could have predicted the exacnt moment when somthing would happen? then put somone their to receav all the glory? Do you know how UNposible that is for somone to do that without divine help?

[Talapus]

Nope. Witch lake did moses cross? NOT THE MEDEERANIAN SEA. You really think a tital wave could have caused all of that? ON A RIVER? Now, when a tsunamy comes, it DOSENT FALLOW THE RIVER. NO, rivers are 1 flowing the OPOSIT DIRECTION and 2 To shallow. Unles it was 90 FEET TALL(Maby I''m exagdurating) DON'T YOU DARE TELL ME that that is possible.

I thought that I was going to stay out of this arguement, but I guess I was wrong. Pie, it is not called the parting of the red sea because god parted a river. The red sea is about 150 miles wide on average, almost 1500 miles long, and the red sea get down to almost 10,000 feet deep (near Port Sudan).

But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.

[Pie]

Yet, my point stands. I'm pretty shure that the tidal wave happened in the Medeturanian sea, in the greak islands...... Causing a black out in the intyer world... actually....

Sorry, i forgot were moses parted the sea.But what i was thinking, is that whatever lake it was(Yes, i thought it was a lake) Could have been conected by a river... still... no dice for you.

[Stan]

I can tell you about the miracles I've witnessed. One happened to me in the last couple of months and another I witnessed when I was in Africa.

I'll have to save them for tomorrow though. I just got home after several days on the road and my wife wants to see me before we go to sleep.

Most people that don't hear God, don't hear God because they aren't listening. You can be in a room with 1000 people, but if you're only listening to yourself sing or engaged in a conversation with someone you won't hear a word anyone else is talking about, until you try to hear them.

Haven't you ever been in a quiet room and then all of a sudden the air conditioner shuts off and you didn't even realize it was making a noise? It's dependent on what you are perceiving.

I ask you, why is it so hard to believe? It really isn't unbelievable you know.

[swymir]

Ah, but if you go back to the bible the hewbrew word for Red has been said to be a mistranslation and that it was really the Reed Sea that Mosses crossed, a much shallower sea.

[Stan]

Yes, I know it is the Reed Sea, but it is the same body of water. My wife just asked me if I still like her.

I better go.

[Stan]

One more thing. I've heard all these great thoughts on why biblical stories aren't true.

Sounds like a lot of thought has been given and you've considered all the reasons why it can't be true. But ask yourself an honest question. Put away all the naysaying for just a moment and open your mind.

Have you ever considered that it could be true?