Iraq feels the liberal way of the west...

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Pirog
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Postby Pirog » Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:53 pm

Meh>>

I must say I'm surprised with you.
For earlier discussions I thought you would be able to hold a more serious discussion. Your last posts have pretty much only consisted of ridicule and personal insults.

Sorry about the riot thing. I guess that is what highly educated and cultured people do when they are vistied upon by the unwashed uneductated americans.


As you haven't got sufficient information about the riot in Gothenburg I don't think you should talk like that.
I have offered to explain the situation in another topic, but I don't think you are even interested in it...you are just using it as a way to ridicule and annoy me.

"The west needs to start respecting values that we can't understand, and that people may want to live their lives differently from us."
What does that have to do with Iraq?


Have I claimed to have a solution for the Iraq conflict?

The rest I won't even respond to, as it is bullshit.
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Postby Meh » Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:20 pm

There it is.

You do not have a solution to Iraq yet you keep bringing it up.

To what purpose?

How can you convince anyone of anything by say basiacally "Here is were you unedcated morons messed up again. Don't you see things my way now?"

Back to the original topic.

After the paper closed down there were protest demostrations in the street about it.

Protests in Iraq!

That is great!

Things are getting better you and Hansy just can't see it.

They may hate us but they were ABLE to PROTEST in the STREET.

But what do I know of progress...
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Pirog
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Postby Pirog » Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:44 pm

Meh>

So you are saying that when someone is doing something horribly wrong and messes a situation up so much that you no longer have a solution to the problem, you should just forget about it and keep quiet?
That is really smart...

The reason for bringing it up is that several people here think that the Iraq war was justified and generally a good thing.
You seem to be one of them.
I originally found it interesting just to debate with people that supports the war, since:

A) Their views are so incredibly different from mine.
B) To learn something about how Americans feel about it.
C) To hear some new perspectives, as almost no people in Sweden share the views of the right wing Americans. (our most right wing party is much more to the left than the democrats in USA...)
D) To perhaps show some new perspectives to the persons that in my view has made a wrong decision.

I admit that the discussion has gotten out of hand, and I am partly responsible for it, but several of you are not even trying to discuss anymore. You are just in it to fight, and in a very immature manner.

You are obviously angry at me for stating that Americans in general doesn't know much about the rest of the world, but it is a damn fact.
Look at this link for example:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/11/20/geography.quiz/

If I was the president of your country that would scare the hell out of me.
How can people even have opinions about countries they can't even find on the world map.
Hell, half of them couldn't even find New York!!!

I don't think it's wrong to claim that many Americans are to poorly educated to make proper decisions about world issues when you see such tests.

After the paper closed down there were protest demostrations in the street about it.
Protests in Iraq!
That is great!
Things are getting better you and Hansy just can't see it.


Yes, and now those demonstrations have escalated into an uprising with many killed on both sides.
I applaud the situation, it is very stable and democratic.

Yeah, I also wonder what you know about progess...
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Postby Meh » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:15 pm

You set yourself up on some high pestial pointing out the problems with everyone and everything but yourself and you expect what exactly?

And yes I think it is a waste of time to tell a sick person "you look sick" everyday. And "you should have worn a coat". And "look at me and my country. We are not sick"

That is not a debate on issues. That is just the standard elitism I have come to expect.

Irregardless of the the truth of education in the states. There is no point in bring that up either. That is not debate. That is a put down. Even more important is the fact that it also does not matter. It does not matter if you can point to a map and say where these palces are. People who can do that perfectly may still not understand the history and all the details of the region. There is no test to point to on that issue. Implying that poor geography of the masses means that all americans are too stupid to run the conrtry or discuss the issues is STUIPID.

"Yes, and now those demonstrations have escalated into an uprising with many killed on both sides.
I applaud the situation, it is very stable and democratic.

Yeah, I also wonder what you know about progess..."

The right to protest and not be toutured is progess. Dolt.
That have at least reached the low level of your hometown.
One could hope they will do better.
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Postby nitefyre » Wed Apr 07, 2004 4:45 pm

Meh wrote:You set yourself up on some high pestial pointing out the problems with everyone and everything but yourself and you expect what exactly?

And yes I think it is a waste of time to tell a sick person "you look sick" everyday. And "you should have worn a coat". And "look at me and my country. We are not sick"

That is not a debate on issues. That is just the standard elitism I have come to expect.

Irregardless of the the truth of education in the states. There is no point in bring that up either. That is not debate. That is a put down. Even more important is the fact that it also does not matter. It does not matter if you can point to a map and say where these palces are. People who can do that perfectly may still not understand the history and all the details of the region. There is no test to point to on that issue. Implying that poor geography of the masses means that all americans are too stupid to run the conrtry or discuss the issues is STUIPID.

"Yes, and now those demonstrations have escalated into an uprising with many killed on both sides.
I applaud the situation, it is very stable and democratic.

Yeah, I also wonder what you know about progess..."

The right to protest and not be toutured is progess. Dolt.
That have at least reached the low level of your hometown.
One could hope they will do better.


I agree with these parallel views to my own. It is not that I am too childish to debate, hell I debated you (Pirog) on 3 different topics about the UN, US, and Iraq, and now when you fine no one is suitin to your pacifist utopia-which shows how Isolated you really are from any of the world's troubles, and I am not too affected by most of em either. Your "hah you were wrong and I'm always right" is not in any way debating, it is bashing and insulting. Your stereotyping of Americans is also wrong, and Meh has therefore a right to undermine your flawed and subjective extreme liberal arguments. You speak your words, and if they are used against you, tough luck-because I find you much more arrogant than the average arrogant Aemrican-whilst ignorant enough not to see the positives in this war.

And to disprove your argument, I went ahead and pointed out the problems with the war as well, though I admit taking Saddam from power was necessary. He was corrupting the world's organization, the UN if you pay any attention to the news on that matter being all I understand the world yet I have no answers for it. And btw my solution is, parallel again to Meh's- is we must move forward, even in this uprising in Iraq. The United States sacrafices its blood in at least an attempt to make the world safer, and peaceful diplomacy may not always work. Of course it has its successes, but after 10 years of failed inspections and persuading and embargoes, Iraq only turned to the worst.
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Postby Pirog » Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:10 pm

Meh>

Oh, wake the fuck up.
You are judging me for trying to put you down while posting stuff about my home town that has nothing to do with the discussion.

You are trying to put me down not with arguments but with spiteful comments to win the liking of the conservative kid who cheers you on.
So yes, it is probably very arrogant of me, but for the moment I look down on you.
You are acting like a school bully, and it's beginning to look pathetic.

If you look at was has been written I believe you will find that I have pointed out more things where I have agreed with your arguments than the other way around.
If I say something you can't counter on you simply ignore the issue.

And the reason for this not being a stimulating discussion is that you spend more time on making insults and finding irrelevant facts to spite me then to actually say something interesting.

Nitefyre>

Your "hah you were wrong and I'm always right" is not in any way debating, it is bashing and insulting.


Could I have an example?
For the moment I feel that you are trying to twist everything I say against me just in the very manner you accuse me of doing.
When I put up a valid argument you don't even bother to answer it properly. At best you ignore it, but most times you deliberately turn it into something you know that I don't mean just to avoid having to answer it.

I find you much more arrogant than the average arrogant Aemrican-whilst ignorant enough not to see the positives in this war.


Well, sorry. I may be a horrible person to not feel rejoice over the fact that hundreds if not thousands of people may die in the uprising going on in Iraq. How very wrong of me not to point out the positive thing in them being able to protest freely, while coalition troops open fire on civilians in those protest lines in their hunt for the rebels.
But hey, that's just the stuff that makes me an isolationist and a cynical.

He was corrupting the world's organization, the UN if you pay any attention to the news...


Yes, he did. I have never said that I supported Saddams ways.
But to remove a man from power for violating UN demands seems prety hollow when performed in a manner where it is done against the will of UN and breaking international law.
How can you not agree with me on this!?

The United States sacrafices its blood in at least an attempt to make the world safer, and peaceful diplomacy may not always work.


But you are only making it safer for YOU.
What your government is doing is putting all of the neutral western countries at risk, since you are practically breeding terrorists in the Middle-East at the moment. For other countries the world was a much safer place before your government launched the war on terror. I believe that even America was safer before the war.
And perhaps the most effective way with terrorism is that it is virtually impossible to stop it. The harder you go after the terrorists, the more people join their ranks.

(And nothing so far has even pointed to Saddam Hussein even being able to harm America, much less proof that he would have done it if he could.)
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Postby Meh » Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:21 pm

Watch out dumb american coming though
*take his finger out of his nose*
-------------------

Ah but your hometown has everything to do with it.

It had a riot a protest. People died. People dying is bad. But the fact that they can protest is good.

Same in Iraq.

Same here.

---------

As for feeling picked on. Well to get an answer out of you is not that easy. You ever had a pickle jar that wouldn't open? The pickle jar gets banged and bumped until it opens. Well you were the pickle jar. I got what I was looking for. The parts of your liberal argument that need work. What were doing encourages conservatism. You just can't accept that becuase your too busy looking down your nose at EVERYONE.

Think of the whole thing as sparring. Real arguments people do all of those things I did. Imagine if I disagreed with postion in general? I am just focusing on some baggage your bringing with you that you need to leave behind.

--------

*sticks his finger up his nose*
Watch out dumb american coming though
Deeeeeeerrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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Pirog
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Postby Pirog » Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:54 pm

Ah but your hometown has everything to do with it.
It had a riot a protest. People died. People dying is bad. But the fact that they can protest is good.
Same in Iraq.
Same here.


If you are trying to prove me wrong on my claim that Americans are stupid (wich is not even true to begin with), you aren't doing a good job with comparing the riot in Gothenburg with the one in Iraq.

Especially since you know nothing of the events in Gothenburg, and have no wish to know it either, since you are to important to care about things that happens in parts of the world you probably can't even find.

And I'm not looking down on EVERYONE.
I'm looking down on you, for the way you are currently behaving.
Just as you are looking down on me. Because that fact you can't possibly deny. Along with Nitefyre you are the only one I'm even disturbed by on this forum, and that is only because of the poor manner you have here.
Apart from throwing sand in my eyes you have pretty much covered all the actions an angry five years old child would resort to.

I know, and have admitted, that I sometimes generalize to much and that I have lost my temper where I should have done a better job of keeping my cool. You have yet to confirm a single fault you have made, and still you preach on how arrogant, cynical and elitist I am.
Fuck it...why do I even bother.
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Postby Revanael » Wed Apr 07, 2004 8:33 pm

The fact that the Iraqis are allowed to protest is a good thing, is what he was saying. The fact that they feel free enough to protest is a good thing. The fact that they ARE, is not a good thing, because it means they think they have somehting to protest about. Do you see the difference there? That seems to be one of the things you two disagree about...

I have this bad habit of trying to be a peacemaker in any argument I am not involved in. Trouble is, im not very good at it....
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Postby Psycho Pixie » Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:49 pm

this is really frustrating, I read all 5 pages of posts and all I can conclude is that you two folks keep going in circles round and round insulting eachother. This was a discussion about people having more freedom wasn't it?

someplace back there someone brought up some test results about how americans cant find other countrys, or even New York on the map. What does this have to do wth the topic at hand? And I would like to point out that they didnt test me, or as far as I can see anyone I know, so the test cant be accurate, not every american was tested. I am sure, if they conducted a test or general poll in many other countrys the results would be the same.

Shall we stop calling people names and get back to the real meat of the topic folks? I hate to see my friends at eachothers throuts, and I do consider every one of you forum and Cantr folks a friend... even Indio. :shock:

so, may I quote here? "can't we all just get along?"


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Postby west » Wed Apr 07, 2004 9:51 pm

Meh, Pirog:

STFU!
I'm not dead; I'm dormant.
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Postby Psycho Pixie » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:16 pm

Quote:
The United States sacrafices its blood in at least an attempt to make the world safer, and peaceful diplomacy may not always work.

Pirog wrote:

But you are only making it safer for YOU.
What your government is doing is putting all of the neutral western countries at risk, since you are practically breeding terrorists in the Middle-East at the moment. For other countries the world was a much safer place before your government launched the war on terror. I believe that even America was safer before the war.
And perhaps the most effective way with terrorism is that it is virtually impossible to stop it. The harder you go after the terrorists, the more people join their ranks.

(And nothing so far has even pointed to Saddam Hussein even being able to harm America, much less proof that he would have done it if he could.)

my reply to all of this:


The middle east was "breeding terrorists" long before the U.S. stepped in and started this war on terrorism. We went to war with much of the middle east because we were attacked, blatantly and outright, by one if not more terrorist organizations based in the Middle east. No, I am not trying to give a history lesson, just give you a fact from which I base my feelings.

Something else to realize, America has always been considered a pretty safe country, safe in that "terrorists" would never hit us. Other countrys have their share of bombings and attacks every year, we did not make it any worse, we simply brought the worlds attention to it. Now that people are watching for it, the attacks are not "swept under the carpet" anymore. So while it looks like there are more terrorist attacks all over the world, the number really hasn't changed, there are people who's jobs are to keep track of that kind of thing. Its public record, you can look it up, at least in America you can.

Saddam could not have physically harmed America, no.... But he could have politically and economically destroyed America if he had been allowed to take over Saudi Arabia years ago. More recently he could have easily Destroyed much of the worlds oil source, let alone forcefully taken most of the middle east, with the bombs and weapons he had in his posession. The same bombs and Weapons he refused to admit he had and were violations of the UN treaty. Those Weapons, along with other things led the U.S. to attack Iraq and remove him from power. NOT because Bush felt like it, not because America wanted more blood for the attack in 2001.

Not every American wants this war to continue, but we will stand by our values and feelings because we are free to do so without fear we will be hurt or killed for feeling differently from our leader. We want that for Iraq, at least I do, and while, yes, lives will be lost to get that country the freedom it deserves, lives were lost gaining America its freedom too. People will die, its a war, thats what happens. I have friends and family over seas that are fighting this war. Do I want them to die? NO. But I understand why we are fighting.

Maybe what I just said does't make all of you very happy to read, Maybe it wasnt exactly on topic, but it was close. Maybe some of you out there are going to read through and pick it apart and twist the words around, and maybe some of you will stop reading before you get to this part because you really don't care what I think. BUT for those of you who do get this far, thank you for reading all of it without pre-judging my response.

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Pirog
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Postby Pirog » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:44 pm

Psycho Pixie>

I think it is good that you involved yourself in the topic.
Perhaps we can get a new start with your post and keep from just insulting eachother.

Here is my reply...

The middle east was "breeding terrorists" long before the U.S. stepped in and started this war on terrorism.


Yes, but what I was trying to point out is that since terrorism is almost impossible to completely stop, since it is based amongst civilians, a war on terror might actually create more terrorists than it destroys.
As the fight on terror is often placed in cities and around civilians a lot of innocent people will be caught in the crossfire and these people's relatives might start hating America.

We went to war with much of the middle east because we were attacked, blatantly and outright, by one if not more terrorist organizations based in the Middle east. No, I am not trying to give a history lesson, just give you a fact from which I base my feelings.


But is that a fair reaction?
Saddam Hussein has in no way been linked to Al-Queda, and no reports indicated that he was preparing to wage war against any other countries.
Before 9/11 USA showed little interest in removing Saddam Hussein...apart from Bush, who had very personal interests in removing Hussein from power.

Something else to realize, America has always been considered a pretty safe country, safe in that "terrorists" would never hit us. Other countrys have their share of bombings and attacks every year, we did not make it any worse, we simply brought the worlds attention to it.


I don't believe that is true.
By waging war on terrorism they will become desperate, and thus want to strike back while they can.

Saddam could not have physically harmed America, no.... But he could have politically and economically destroyed America if he had been allowed to take over Saudi Arabia years ago. More recently he could have easily Destroyed much of the worlds oil source, let alone forcefully taken most of the middle east, with the bombs and weapons he had in his posession.


The situation was very different then.
A war against Iraq would have been justified, and we could have removed Saddam Hussein from power with a stable coalition and support of the UN.
As I have pointed out earlier, this makes an ethical dilemma.
In the same way as you and I can't take the law into our own hands and kill a criminal, coutries have to follow international laws.
Since USA has shown little respect for these laws there is a risk that they will become worthless...and I don't think anyone would want a lawless world, right?

The same bombs and Weapons he refused to admit he had and were violations of the UN treaty. Those Weapons, along with other things led the U.S. to attack Iraq and remove him from power. NOT because Bush felt like it, not because America wanted more blood for the attack in 2001.


First of all, no such weapons have been found.
Until they are we must consider the fact that Saddam might have been honest when saying that they were destroyed.
But sure, Saddam Hussein didn't follow the UN regulations...
USA on the other hand doesn't follow the regulations either. The way you made up the term "non-combatant" to deprive the captives from the Afghanistan war from their human rights would have never been tolerated if another country than America did it.

Not every American wants this war to continue, but we will stand by our values and feelings because we are free to do so without fear we will be hurt or killed for feeling differently from our leader. We want that for Iraq, at least I do, and while, yes, lives will be lost to get that country the freedom it deserves, lives were lost gaining America its freedom too. People will die, its a war, thats what happens. I have friends and family over seas that are fighting this war. Do I want them to die? NO. But I understand why we are fighting.


Well, now that the war has been initiated I agree that it must continue, and if the coalition forces manage to secure the grounds for a stable democracy I will be delighted to admit that I was wrong.
But the situation in Iraq is handled in a very poor manner from my view, and that is what I'm critizising. And I also think it is important that the Americans who supports the war must understand that just because America CAN behave pretty much as you want, doesn't make it right.

Maybe what I just said does't make all of you very happy to read, Maybe it wasnt exactly on topic, but it was close. Maybe some of you out there are going to read through and pick it apart and twist the words around, and maybe some of you will stop reading before you get to this part because you really don't care what I think. BUT for those of you who do get this far, thank you for reading all of it without pre-judging my response.


I hope I didn't twist your words, and that you didn't find my answers as arrogant and horrible as many others surely will ;)
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Postby Revanael » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:48 pm

Erm... Priog? I think you were still exactly as you and Meh have been the entire topic... And I'm not American, in fact I'm english, and I agreen with PsyPI more.

But that doesnt matter. Enough arguing, I think.
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Pirog
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Postby Pirog » Wed Apr 07, 2004 10:51 pm

Oh, and about the link I posted...

Other countries did take part in the study and most of them managed very much better than the Americans.
But the point I tried to make with it isn't that Americans are idiots, I was just pointing out the fact that Americans in general have very bad knowledge about the rest of the world. I personally believe that it is because of your culture, and the fact that your country is so large that Americans can spend their whole life travelling around in different parts of America, and therefore have less interest in seeing other countries.

I think it is strange that many have reacted so strongly about this, since there have been many jokes about this for decades...I took it for granted that you Americans were aware of that fact yourself.
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