Michael Moore

[Camino]

Economic problems? Bit of a myth really, some company announces a reduction in profits and that seems to signal economic collapse. Big lay-offs so the companies can increase the amount of profit they make and giving a few media institutions the green light to report we're on the way to a global economic crisis, which can only be averted by drilling for oil in extremely delicate environments and giving the rich a tax cut.

The seperation between church and state in the US, least how it's protrayed for the most part, always has been non-existent & the fact Bush is trying to do it at a national level seems a mere continuation not a beginning.

[kroner]

well first of all, fear of something imagined like that can hurt the economy in a real way. when people get scared, they pull their money out of their investments which does real damage and prompts others to do the same. also usually when this happens there are real underlying problems. i don't think our economic problems are a bush administration ploy. maybe they try to utilize it to get their policy through like you say, but economic downturn is in itself very unpopular and it would be a bit silly for them to make it up.

as for the seperation of church and state, there have always been little things that seem to violate this. "in god we trust" on money, taking oaths on a bible, non-denominational school prayer (not anymore). but bush is taking things even further. that's the wrong direction to be going, and it is frightening.

[AoM]

I'd agree that the church has never truly been completely separate from the state. Which is a damn shame, considering it's one of the tenants of our democracy. But calling Bush's faith-based initiative a "continuation" is like calling a torrential downpour a continuation of mourning dew.

~AoM

[Camino]

Fair enough Meisora.

I don't mean to imply that the economic downturn thing is a Bush ploy but rather a rich mans ploy, spread the fear and make sure the little people don't think about doing any foolish like coming after what's rightly theirs.

[Pirog]

well first of all, fear of something imagined like that can hurt the economy in a real way.

Yes, the capitalistic economy is based much more on imaginations than based on rationalism and fact. The way we pay ten times the price for an article identical to all the others for the simple fact that it has a known brand in one example

[Missy]

I have finally watched his new film.

A.) My husband watched it with me, and though I think he's still a bit confused about what he really thinks half the time, he'll to some extent agree with me that the war in Iraq was wrong. (THIS is after two/three years of my political ramblings about bush, this adminstration, betting what date we went to war with iraq etc etc..)


B.) Another guy in my husbands unit who got the word infidel tattooed on his chest in arabic then got shipped off to Afghanistan messeged me the other day and said..."You were right! Bush IS an asshole" I began discussing the war with this guy when I first started this topic. He used to tell me I was full of shit. He too watched MM's new film and it's what changed his mind.
(*Does a gloating dance Since the guy doesnt play cantr nor check these forums.* )

I don't think it has anything to do with what MM presents as fact but may not necessarily be fact. I think he makes people think with the idea behind the facts whether or not they are falsely presented. The guy who changed his mind proves this theory since he was very adament when we debated that I backed up my argument with facts. We literally argued til we were blue in the face.(I once spent an entire night searching for something cited by MM's book with no success when I debated with this guy..) (Clearly, that he's in Afghanistan probably has something to do with his opinion changing.)

In any case I just want to say that I recant my earlier statement that MM can't change minds. He deffinately has some influence on even some of the most persistent people I've ever met.



Also, has anyone seen "The Great Illusion?" I don't know if it's still there, but try downloading it from www.suprnova.org

[Zoot]

Yeah, I saw the movie. And I'll see it again tomorrow when my college's film club has a screening.

(edit: Scratch that. The Presidential debate is on at the same time--and it's far more important. That film club may mean well, but they have lousy timing if I ever saw it...)

You know what is really, really important about this movie? Forget the heap of political rhetoric or the Bin Laden ties.

Michael Moore showed the human toll of this Iraq invasion. I'm not talking about the soldiers. He showed vivid pictures of children who died in the bombing. Some might say this is wrong, but... someone needs to witness that.

More civilians have died in our bombing of Iraq than died on 9/11. Why doesn't that matter? Why isn't anyone talking about it? Is it because they're tan?

[The Industriallist]

Is that actually true? It's possible, but I'd like to see some sourcing on that statistic. If it's right that's a very good shot, and one that should be made more often. If it's wrong it's the kind of abuse of statistics that reminds me that liberal politicals are scum too.

And...is that only the current war, or is it counting previous bombings of Iraq that had nothing to do with 9/11, even rhetorically?

As for vivid pictures, you can keep them. A picture is an excellent way to make people stop thinking.

[Zoot]

I've seen similar statistics in other media outlets... I'll see if I can find a specific number, but I believe the Red Cross/Crescent and other similar organizations have put out very large numbers.

And I'm talking about the current war... My language was too general.

As for pictues... sometimes people are so numb that nothing else touches them.

[Antichrist_Online]

Micheal Moore is a hypercrytical twat. He uses made up and unsupported "facts" edits the context of things ("Cold dead hands" speech in bowling for columbine was made two months after about the musket itself as a response to its history). I'll post a website with all his incorrect comments and bull shit later.

[Zoot]

Micheal Moore is a hypercrytical twat. He uses made up and unsupported "facts" edits the context of things ("Cold dead hands" speech in bowling for columbine was made two months after about the musket itself as a response to its history). I'll post a website with all his incorrect comments and bull shit later.

Calling your ideological opponents twats.

That's one sure way to elevate the discourse.

[west]

No need to talk about elevating the discourse when referring to Michael Moore. He's the king of the cheap shot.

A_Online is correct, though I would hvae put it a bit differently.

Michael Moore is to serious documentary opposition as
a Happy Meal is to a steak dinner.

Not even in the same league.

[kroner]

Michael Moore makes me happy. The GOP has been taking cheap shots and pulling dirty tricks for a long time. It's about time some one on the left evened the score.

[Zoot]

No need to talk about elevating the discourse when referring to Michael Moore. He's the king of the cheap shot.

Yeah, yeah, I know. He's so much worse than, say, Ann Coulter, who spews three dimenional, polite arguments.

Serioiusly, though, I understand were you're coming from. I like the guy, but he doesn't exactly change minds.

It's the vulgarity I don't like. It just looks... stupid. And that doesn't help your side at all.

It's like Cheney telling someone to go **** himself.

[Antichrist_Online]

The thing is I actually agree with Moore on his points. Just his methods cause people to think "oh he's stupid so he's talking crap". I agree with alot of things, I just hate people claiming made up things are true. That is why he's a twat (stupid person version not female genitals or pregnat fish), not because he is an opponent but because I agree with him and he ruins the argument.

The only exception is I'm pro-firearms, but with liecencing laws like those here in the UK. I also understand the process of hydrogen isolation using atitanium dioxide catalyst and then running a Sterling engine off it, which is power from hydrogen, which in dude where's my country he says is a pack of lies. I leave bullshit to people like you Mr Moore, so could you leave science to scientists like me.