Where's Nick??

[the_antisocial_hermit]

Mmm, I'm not picky, as long as a guy smells good with whatever he's wearing. It is a weakness of mine!

[west]

I love the smell of drama in the morning.

(There were no "where's west?!" posts when I was gone )

[Stan]

We knew you'd be back.

[Coramon]

Axe smells like heaven. NOT VODKA. I had to sniff some Vodka to double check. It smells like Purell. (Hand Sanitizer). And Axe really isn't as cheap as some things. IE Red Zone etc.

[Nixit]

Old Spice all da way.

[Nick]

When I reported Nick for cheating, but with out the good evidence of chat logs, Nick pointed his finger at me and called me a big cheater. It's a childish "I'm-not-a-big-poopy-head-you-are!" defense. Given enough time, the truth comes out.

Now now, Agar. Maybe that high blood pressure is getting to you. You need to calm down, and realise that I'm just an 18 year old who doesn't even live in the same country as you. Get a life. Or you'll lose the one you have.

I could whine and tell everybody about your and Sparkles little group you had going, or I could just post the link to your group, with maps and whatnot that you invited me to back when we cheated together, a long time ago.

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/CantrMapNInvent/

And I agree.. it is up to Nick if he wishes to share..what he was accused of..

Oh, the big question everybody has been reading for...
What was I accused of? What happened?
Believe it or not, I don't know. I've asked, I have been told that I won't be told.

I will be rather honest with you, just because I really could care less.
Back a year plus ago, I cheated a lot with Brandon and Sho (and some other minor helpers here and there), who got banned for it. We would relay to each other what was happening in different places of interest (really, almost exclusively K island. But a lot of people on the other side were cheating, too...).

I won't go into too much detail about back then because frankly, I don't remember. But I wasn't a very good boy then.

In the past year or so, if anything the reason I have been playing more or less fair is that I didn't have the time nor the will to keep cheating. Admittedly, perhaps old habits, from time to time I have asked people who I knew worked with my characters to check their characters to aid in whatever they were doing at the time (such as dragging), but nothing really serious. I don't know if this is what they are accusing me of, or whatever.

None of my major personalities cheated since Ethan Blackrock. I pretty much killed him off after I disliked the 'life' of cheating. Amon Bigsby, Krix Borisson, Adf, Steven Williams, all of my characters you know and love (or more likely, hate) weren't involved in cheating.

So really what bewildered me is that I got along perfectly fine when I cheated all the time, but I get banned now, of all times. I'm 100% honest when I say I don't know what I've done recently that is grounds for banning. Perhaps asking people to help drag on occasion isn't exactly kosher, but I've tried my best in the past years.

Partially because, the people I cheated with, Brandon and Sho. Sho is banned, so obviously we didn't cheat anymore. Brandon has been clean (afaik) since coming back to Cantr after getting banned.

For those of you still reading this post just because you're hoping I don't mention your name, have no fear. Really, the staff should know that there is SO MUCH cheating going on, that what they do is peanuts. Everybody should know that it's not just Agar, or Brandon, or Sho, or anybody else that has been cheating. I think anyone would be suprised of all of the people I could mention here, but I won't.

And I really hope this point remains clear.. I didn't just say the PD was corrupt because I was a cheater. It's true. Some of our cheating 'associates' would easily get information from certain PD members (at least one of which, still on the PD), such as who plays what character, is this person dead, etc. If my honesty in this post means anything, then please, carry it onto this paragraph. The PD wreaks of corruption, no question about it. Their motives primarily revolve around saving their own characters, as has been demonstrated (and documented by myself, in fact) in the past. The Cantr staff is a real "clique"-y organisation, and if you want to be in it, best thing for you to do is to tell me off, and go make friends with the ringleaders.

For all of you aspirant Sherlock Holmes out there, keep an eye out for who pairs their characters together. One person who makes three or more characters band together will be caught (by the PD, pretty much the only thing they can accomplish... but anyone with PD access and a brain could do it). That's newbie cheating, and that's not what I'm talking about. Don't rule someone out 'because they're on staff'. And lastly, if the PD ever wants to catch cheaters, they will have to seriously revamp how they do it. I don't know if that's why they put Brandon on PD, or if he just got there because he's friends with the clique (he always has been).

Perhaps, sometime in the future, if the powers-that-be so have mercy, I might like to come back. I think I have the insight needed to bust quite a bit of cheating out of Cantr, actually. For now, I am fine in my cantr-free life. I've been mainly working on programming, playing 'normal' games and getting that one last high school credit.

So, in conclusion, I have played less than perfect, especially in the past years. But I'd like you all to know that the characters I played that you all know, don't profit off of serious cheating. I've enjoyed my 3-4 years playing Cantr, and am not angry for getting banned. In fact, I may just suggest it for you addicts out there, this is the only concievable way to quit.

Yours truly,
Nick

[Coramon]

I convinced Nick to post in this thread. Save your applause.

[west]

I'd have to agree with Nick: Banning seems to be the only thing that works.



I'm doing my best to sidestep as much drama as possible. Although I'm still PD, I was inactive during the time in question (still am, actually: I've offered up my slot if it's needed) so I don't really have an opinion one way or another.

Nick, you were variously infuriating and a lot of fun to play cantr with. It's been real. Come back sometime. They don't make 'em like they used to.

[colonel]

(There were no "where's west?!" posts when I was gone )

I tried getting your picture on milk cartons but they wouldn't let me.

[Jos Elkink]

I'm not really sure it's wise or not, but I just feel compelled to reply to this. Unfortunately, most of the time I think I'm perfectly clear in my writing, it appears from reactions that I wasn't, so I hope I won't be misinterpreted ...

Let me first restate what I said above: banning is only a last resort for the PD and is applied when we are quite convinced that someone is cheating (unfortunately, full proof is simply technically impossible) and when this person is not willing to cooperate. The latter point is rather important. People that admit they were cheating and that talk to the PD how to resolve it are treated quite differently from those that keep denying.

Secondly, we have always been relatively generous towards letting players that were banned back in. We take bans serious and they usually stay active for quite a while, but if I'm not mistaken, several banned players have been let back in after months or a year or so.

Thirdly, I would also like to emphasise that we are comparatively generous. In many games the rules are much simpler, there is simply a disclaimer which says: "if we think you cheat, we ban you." No prove involved, no complaining, no returning at a later date, no negotiating to find better solutions. Would have saved is a lot of work if we did that.

No, about Nick's post, which I must say, is actually a very nice one. What strikes me most, and what makes me post this message, is that Nick is far more straightforward and open about where he went wrong and where he didn't than any conversation with him I can see with the PD. If he had taken this approach, and cooperated more clearly and openly with the PD, he might very well never have been banned. He was banned because we had strong suspicions of his cheating, which is here admits, mainly around his pirate activity, but he always denied and simply reverted to blaming PD members of not doing their job properly. His accusations towards the PD might be accurate, and if so, are very serious, but they do not negate the fact that he himself was cheating. And nobody is saying that he cheated with all his characters, or that he was not a good player (he was), but his cheating in pirate activity did cost other players' their characters and was definitely disruptive to the game, at least in that area. It boils down to the fact that Nick never seemed to try to get back the PD's confidence in him as a player, but instead reverted to denying and pointing fingers to others.

Really, the staff should know that there is SO MUCH cheating going on, that what they do is peanuts.

Yes, cheating is very, very difficult to trace, especially since the game is growing very fast - how to check about 7000 character? - and the PD is not. The PD is the most difficult department to staff in Cantr, because it requires a lot of trust in a staff member to allow the person access to sensitive data (and we more than once went wrong in that respect), the PD requires more training than most departments (the CR is far more difficult to understand than one would expect and especially the interpretation from the PD's perspective is difficult), and the members of the PD are often treated very in a very hostile member by the players at large, making it a very unattractive department to be in. Especially the latter is getting worse and worse, it seems. When Cantr was smaller we had far more applicants for PD positions than we have now. And once the PD becomes small and overworked, as it is now, it becomes only harder to find the time to train and get acquainted with new staff members.

Some of our cheating 'associates' would easily get information from certain PD members (at least one of which, still on the PD), such as who plays what character, is this person dead, etc.

To be sure: this is not 'accepted policy' among Cantr staff. PD members are not allowed to do this, will be warned when discovered to do so, and removed from staff when it happens again. This is a serious issue and not acceptable. Such events should be reported.

The PD wreaks of corruption, no question about it. Their motives primarily revolve around saving their own characters, as has been demonstrated (and documented by myself, in fact) in the past. The Cantr staff is a real "clique"-y organisation, and if you want to be in it, best thing for you to do is to tell me off, and go make friends with the ringleaders.

I don't think that is true, but if it is, it is a very serious issue. As much as PD work is very complicated, checking on the PD is even more difficult ... So any suggestions, other than simply accusations, as to how to deal with such issues would be very welcome. I.e. under what circumstances should accusations be considered proven? How should we judge whether a PD member is reliable or not? How can we avoid cliquishness? Etc. Constructive critique is more valuable than unfounded accusations (at least, without the foundation made public or known to top staff members).

That's newbie cheating, and that's not what I'm talking about.

True - the most important cheating is harder to get than the easy cheating. Much like robbers on the street are probably more often caught by the police than corrupt ministers. The bigger the crime, the harder to get the perpetrator, usually ... That's not a Cantr or PD specific problem.

And lastly, if the PD ever wants to catch cheaters, they will have to seriously revamp how they do it.

Any suggestions in that respect are very welcome.

I don't know if that's why they put Brandon on PD, or if he just got there because he's friends with the clique (he always has been).

Brandon was very cooperative with the PD, eventually, and showed serious regret after having been banned. He was very enthousiast about joining the PD, which can always use good people. He demonstrated to really have stopped cheating after he returned. Over a long period of time, by behaving very decently, and by many conversations, he gradually built up the trust needed to be accepted in the PD, and he has been a good member since he came in.

I'm curious as to know why he would be the 'revamping' addition to the PD.

I hope this response does justice to Nick, the PD, and Cantr as a whole and I didn't make any stupid statements ...

[colonel]

Well I once again have come into this conversation late but wow, that was very interesting. I for one do not know of any ring leaders but then again I have always been on the outside looking ummm the wrong way.

[Nick]

Seko, there was no "conspiracy" against Nick. Only a long-time, intensive investigation, because we knew he was killing other's characters by cheating, but couldn't prove it so as to stop him. Those players whose characters he killed, I'm sorry we couldn't stop him sooner.

Do me a favor, dear. Look up the word conspiracy.

I hope we will eventually find more players that are similar to Nick

No, you don't. Cantr couldn't handle it.
In either case, I'm one of a kind, it won't happen.

The staff was corrupt, Nick was in a couple departments

Oh, yes. Planting corrupt ads, translating corrupt game messages... oh, what fun.

(There were no "where's west?!" posts when I was gone Razz )

Yeah, I was quite suprised to hear I had a four page 'where am I' thread.
Nick.Ego = Nick.Ego + 1

Secondly, we have always been relatively generous towards letting players that were banned back in. We take bans serious and they usually stay active for quite a while, but if I'm not mistaken, several banned players have been let back in after months or a year or so.

Several? I only count one, Brandon. And I'm not friends with Netty and company, so I count my odds at coming back as quite low.

Thirdly, I would also like to emphasise that we are comparatively generous. In many games the rules are much simpler, there is simply a disclaimer which says: "if we think you cheat, we ban you." No prove involved, no complaining, no returning at a later date, no negotiating to find better solutions. Would have saved is a lot of work if we did that.

That would be much too simple a way to run things for a bureaucrat like yourself...

about Nick's post, which I must say, is actually a very nice one.

Hmm, well thank you.

What strikes me most, and what makes me post this message, is that Nick is far more straightforward and open about where he went wrong and where he didn't than any conversation with him I can see with the PD. If he had taken this approach, and cooperated more clearly and openly with the PD, he might very well never have been banned. He was banned because we had strong suspicions of his cheating, which is here admits, mainly around his pirate activity, but he always denied and simply reverted to blaming PD members of not doing their job properly.

If a respectable person such as yourself or Jur or someone had come to me with specific accusations, it would have been very different. Sending people with well-known, long standing grudges after me isn't very tactful. Despite the fact that I have cheated in the past, most of the things I have been accused of in the past were false... this is not a blanket confession. I hope that after admitting my wrongdoing, and the fact that I'm banned (so why would I care), the things I continue to deny are believed.

His accusations towards the PD might be accurate, and if so, are very serious, but they do not negate the fact that he himself was cheating.

As long as it is recognized that the same is for the converse (because I have been banned, does not mean my accusations weren't true).

And nobody is saying that he cheated with all his characters, or that he was not a good player (he was), but his cheating in pirate activity did cost other players' their characters and was definitely disruptive to the game, at least in that area. It boils down to the fact that Nick never seemed to try to get back the PD's confidence in him as a player, but instead reverted to denying and pointing fingers to others.

Oh, so that's what I was banned for then? You'd be surpised at how widespread that is.. I see people asking to help drag all of the time. Probably a large contributing factor is that it's not written... anywhere... that this is against the rules.

Yes, cheating is very, very difficult to trace, especially since the game is growing very fast - how to check about 7000 character? - and the PD is not. The PD is the most difficult department to staff in Cantr, because it requires a lot of trust in a staff member to allow the person access to sensitive data (and we more than once went wrong in that respect), the PD requires more training than most departments (the CR is far more difficult to understand than one would expect and especially the interpretation from the PD's perspective is difficult), and the members of the PD are often treated very in a very hostile member by the players at large, making it a very unattractive department to be in. Especially the latter is getting worse and worse, it seems. When Cantr was smaller we had far more applicants for PD positions than we have now. And once the PD becomes small and overworked, as it is now, it becomes only harder to find the time to train and get acquainted with new staff members.

Ah, so I see the PD are not familiar with google? The other day I needed the treefeather map to reference for a discussion I was having with another player. Before too long I found several cheating sites along with eventually the map I was looking for.

To be sure: this is not 'accepted policy' among Cantr staff. PD members are not allowed to do this, will be warned when discovered to do so, and removed from staff when it happens again. This is a serious issue and not acceptable. Such events should be reported.

I have reported this and others to you in a conversation several months ago. Quite frankly, you ignored me afaik.

... So any suggestions, other than simply accusations, as to how to deal with such issues would be very welcome.

Hmmm. Okay, I'll give it a shot. While I'm at it, I'll make comments on other areas of how you could improve your staff... you're a brilliant man but this really is an area you could use some improvement...

Let's start by not having one person do all of the hiring. Especially one who has been accused of wrongdoing in the past (and.. right now). Even if this person doesn't do the entire decision making process, you pretty much have to be her friend or you're not getting anywhere. You'll notice the people who reach the PD, among other places, are not necessarily the most qualified, but always gets along with certain people. Dragon Slayer and Mikki, among others, are two examples of plainly bad material that easily made their way into the PD due to them setting their best foot forward with certain someones.

Secondly, when it comes to high ranking positions, there really shouldn't be people occupying more than one of them, especially when they're not considerably active. For anti-corruption and just for plain anti-idleness. Anthony (no corruption accusations here, he's a great guy) should NOT be the RD chair. I know you like him (for what reason, we'll never know.. ), but his time has passed.. at least bump him down to a regular member until he logs in at least once a month.

As for proving allegations against a staff member, well as you said before, it's quite difficult if not impossible to 'prove' them, but repeated accusations are never a good sign. Anybody with any serious accusations should not be sitting on the GAC or GAB. You know who I'm talking about.

And lastly, if the PD ever wants to catch cheaters, they will have to seriously revamp how they do it.

Any suggestions in that respect are very welcome.

Nope, I think that's my wild-card ticket back in.
I don't know if it's laze or general lack of savoir faire for the PD to not catch some of the larger groups, but I'm quite confident if I was motivated to, I could accumulate information that the PD is probably not generating at the moment (or at least, not applying).

Brandon was very cooperative with the PD, eventually, and showed serious regret after having been banned. He was very enthousiast about joining the PD, which can always use good people. He demonstrated to really have stopped cheating after he returned. Over a long period of time, by behaving very decently, and by many conversations, he gradually built up the trust needed to be accepted in the PD, and he has been a good member since he came in.

Conversations with who?
Don't need to answer me, I know who. But that's one more point in my favor.

I'm curious as to know why he would be the 'revamping' addition to the PD.

Oh, you know, like a drug dealer turned narcotics officer type thing. Knows the ropes.

I hope this response does justice to Nick, the PD, and Cantr as a whole and I didn't make any stupid statements ...

Justice? Nick? PD? Everybody get your quote button ready, they're finally in the same sentence.

[Dee]

I didn't know asking for help dragging is a CRB!

I am actually not surprised to know that there are some people cheating in the game, I might think of someone who cheats, but he's not on the staff, and I'm not going to tell his name, it's just that I now know that what he did was cheating.

And the whole incident when people were fighting TBR and they got off the island for no reason (supposing that they didn't know an army was going to fight them), was that also cheating?

Quite frankly, if so much people are cheating in the game, then I don't want to play it anymore. It's unfair for other players.

[Jos Elkink]

I shouldn't spend so much time typing all this, but I'm simply too bored at the moment ...

Do me a favor, dear. Look up the word conspiracy.

That's rude and bad argumentation ...

Several? I only count one, Brandon. And I'm not friends with Netty and company, so I count my odds at coming back as quite low.

As said, I wasn't sure about the number ... I thought it was two, but can't right now remember who the other was, so you might well be right. Being friends with Netty is not key, nor was it in Brandon's case. Showing regret and willingness to do better next time and just creating trust are key.

That would be much too simple a way to run things for a bureaucrat like yourself...

*sighs* That is totally true ...

If a respectable person such as yourself or Jur or someone had come to me with specific accusations, it would have been very different.

The problem is that only a few people are deeply involved in PD cases and are good at it. Most times that I got deeply involved in a PD case, I just demonstrated that I'm not very tactful with these things, and I am usually not well enough able to get a good overal picture of a case. I get too tired of leading long logs of chat conversations or events pages, and I get just too annoyed with people accusing each other of lying etc. It's not my thing, which is why the PD was among the first things (together with the RD) I delegated to others.

I hope that after admitting my wrongdoing, and the fact that I'm banned (so why would I care), the things I continue to deny are believed.

You won't get a blanket cheque that from now on everything you say is believed ... Right now, having forgotten most of the case anyway (as I just said), I personally tend to believe you, but that's not sufficient ... Also, note that I might have been missing other reasons that you were banned, I don't want to say with absolute certainty that I just gave you the exact reason ... It was too complicated a case for that.

I have now several times argued that we should perhaps have some kind of jury or judge. Most people are not very supportive of the idea, and it is definitely even far more bureaucratic than the current system, but this kind of cases make me want something like that ... The PD would then have to argue the case, even if not prove totally, and the accused would be given a chance to defend, and a judge would finally decide.

Ah, so I see the PD are not familiar with google? The other day I needed the treefeather map to reference for a discussion I was having with another player. Before too long I found several cheating sites along with eventually the map I was looking for.

Well, that's a good idea for the PD to do more research in in future ...

I have reported this and others to you in a conversation several months ago. Quite frankly, you ignored me afaik.

Accusations from one person, especially when this person is under investigation, without decent proof, is not going to convince me easily. Besides, I probably sometimes fail by just hating to deal with these issues so much that I ignore them more than I should. There are many issues related to Cantr I have to think about, and many more issues unrelated to Cantr in my life I have to deal with, that this is the kind of extra thing I don't really need, and that might sometimes blur my judgement as to the seriousness of a case.

You could perhaps write me a personal email with whom you accuse of what and what evidence you have?

Let's start by not having one person do all of the hiring.

This is simply not the case. Every application is reviewed by several people. Usually at least the chair of the respective department, the personnel officer, and the GAB, and often one or two GAC members. Some cases are judged by fewer people than others, but none of them by one person only.

Secondly, when it comes to high ranking positions, there really shouldn't be people occupying more than one of them, especially when they're not considerably active. For anti-corruption and just for plain anti-idleness.

Yes, I totally agree with this, and other players have pointed this out in recent times as well. I would really love to have this changed. The GAB members should not be in any other departments. However, we unfortunately lack the kind of reliable staff in sufficient numbers to change this. Even with the bigger departments, you'd be surprised how small a proportion of the staff members is doing most of the work. We don't have enough staff at the moment to fill all those positions.

Anthony (no corruption accusations here, he's a great guy) should NOT be the RD chair.

Oh, that issue is currently being addressed.

As for proving allegations against a staff member, well as you said before, it's quite difficult if not impossible to 'prove' them, but repeated accusations are never a good sign. Anybody with any serious accusations should not be sitting on the GAC or GAB. You know who I'm talking about.

That does, however, also depend on how many people are making these accusations.

Nope, I think that's my wild-card ticket back in.

Sure, if you think so ... I don't think you will be able to 'bribe' your way in. You'll be let in after a long enough period if we have the impression that you will play according to the rules. Not later and not earlier. It has nothing to do with how useful we consider you for staff positions.

Brandon was very cooperative with the PD

Conversations with who?
Don't need to answer me, I know who. But that's one more point in my favor.

I think you have the wrong person, but how do I know?

The decision to let Brandon back in was made by me, Thomas, Sico, and Wim, during a weekend in Kiel. Thomas was the one of us who knew Brandon best and thus had the strongest influence on the decision.

I didn't know asking for help dragging is a CRB!

Yes, chars should be independent, you should not encourage others outside the game to suddenly start playing. It's cooperation on players level to get things going on characters level, and that is not allowed under the CR.

And the whole incident when people were fighting TBR and they got off the island for no reason (supposing that they didn't know an army was going to fight them), was that also cheating?

Obviously ... If the reason was the army approaching. There is always a problem there, of course, since one can always argue that there were other reasons to leave that had nothing to do with the approaching army. Unfortunately, in those, and probably most cases, it is in the end a matter of the PD trusting that explanation or not.

As I said, perhaps we should think harder about getting a more 'independent' judge, at least independent of the PD. But this would seriously complicate things, make the PD work even harder and PD membership even more unpopular.

Quite frankly, if so much people are cheating in the game, then I don't want to play it anymore. It's unfair for other players.

Don't give up just yet ... There are always cheaters, but few that ruin the game seriously. In fact, bizarrily enough, most cheating leads to more interesting game play, an issue that I don't know a solution for. If everybody cheats, the game is ruined, if a few people cheat, the game is improved ... Doesn't mean we can allow those few cheaters, but, well, there you go ...

[Agar]

Just to make sure something is clear ...

Asking in character to get help draging is in character and fine, right?

Asking your IM buddies to log on and help drag is Major Bad CRB no-no, right?