Cheap Northern Drugs, Cheap Southern Guns,and The Mob on Top

[Revanael]

It sounds to me like you want to be like every country these days. Blame some random problem on the good Ol' US of A.

No... I'm blaming what happens in the US on the US.

[Floyd]

I was waiting for someone to namedrop Marx... Good on you Cookiemonster

[Schme]

Wow, this got big.

Brace yourself.

Then what they are dong is wrong and immoral. And should be stopped.

But what you fail to see which I'm pointing out is that you have to stop the problem at the core by standing against the gangsters or otherwise they'll continue to find ways to get guns and kill people that get in the way of their greed.

Well, I should think that you know that we are doing that. Were not that foolish. There is of course a big picture.


However, it does not help us in the least (to understate) that, when standing against the gangsters when they can shoot back at us. Believe me.

[quote=”rklenseth”]Since hand guns are regulated by the State Government in the US then your beef should be with each state. Not all states have the same laws. In New York you must get a permit from the state to own a gun which requires you to go through a safety program and background checks. If you were convicted of a felony in New York you cannot own a hand gun. Now if you passed both the program and background you can own one hand gun which requires the dealer to go through a background check on you. You also must be 21 years old in order to get a permit. For every other hand gun you want to own after the first you must once again get a permit from the state government for each one. Which requires the dealer and the state to do a background check each time by law. So if you own 20 hand guns you must have 20 permits for each handgun. This only applies to hand guns though. If you are 18, anyone can buy a rifle or smoothbore (shotguns and muzzleloaders) and anyone of any age can own and use either a rifle or smoothbore in New York. Stores can have there own regulations of who they sell rifles or smoothbores to like some will not sell them to anyone under the age of 21. There are other regulations for where and when you can shoot guns such as hunting laws or how close to residental areas you can shoot one. It has been interpreted by the Supreme Court that gun regulations should be regulated by the State Government and not by the Federal Government.

Some states do not require permits or even background checks. Your beef should be with them. [/quote]

I’ll admit that New York has tried, some, to stop guns getting into the wrong hands.

(However, I feel that it is quite likely that places like Alberta are out of luck)

However, the fact remains, our boys are still coming up here, smoking each other left and right, with guns that are stamped Smith and Wesson. (By that I mean American guns)

It still happens.

I do quote your entire post because it's not worth the time for me like it is for some to go through the entire thing and pull out the pieces that are relevent.

Yes, airport security is important. It's the same thing. You're trying to prevent things from coming in and going out---and it's just not possible no matter what it's for, who it involves or why.

Yes. But no Canadians smuggle weed into the United States by plane, not the profitable ones anyway, and not the people I'm talking about.

Let me also add that you're being very one sided. You act like we don't do what we can to keep guns from getting into the wrong hands. There are laws to prevent it but unfortunately it doesn't always help. You keep saying you don't care about our weed problem, but you're the one who put it up for discussion in the first place. You're trying to compare the two in your first post---Trying to explain you do everything to keep it out of our hands--but if thts true then explain the figure "90%" which you posted. You can't.

Allow me to explain. If the United States would not imminently impose economically crippling sanctions against us, we would have legalized weed long ago, thus destroying the entire market, as that market would be taken over by American toker tourists and American smugllers.

And so, with no market to fight over, no need to fight. No more market up here for your guns.

But in not allowing us to legalize weed, you are keeping your market open, therefore causing yourself problems that we cannot deal with for you.

Of course, I do not say there would be no more gangsterism and violence. The United States weed market, although a insanly large, does not account for all the violent organized crime, let alone crime, not to mention that these people would likely turn to something else.

There is of course also the crack, prostituition and extortion markets, not to mention fighting over legitamite bussiness.

But the weed problem would all but stop.

Schme, you are not a specially deputized god by virtue of starting the thread. Trying to stop people from posting stupid, irrelevant garbage is one thing...singlehandedly trying to control the entire discussion is assinine.

That was irrelavent garbage. He could, rather than asking us, have read the thread.

Also, what I am trying to do is not have this thread go off into another topic and to have people lose sight of my original argument, as so often happens.

>Bran-Muffin
I'd be surprised if either Hitler or Stalin killed anyone with their own hands (or weapons) during their political careers. That makes bad potential press, and adds a totally needless risk to a rise to dictatorship.

Yes, indeed. However, they both did kill by hand before there carreers in politics.

And, finally, onto the topic...
While I know rather less about the mechanics of gang warfare than I think I do about conventional warfare...it seems to me that access to guns wouldn't really make it much worse. Basically, I think you'd have the exact same problems even if your gangs could somehow be totally stripped of firearms. Only with less spent brass lying around.

Well, I'm glad you do not claim to be expert on the subject, as many people talk go on and on about it, and yet do not understand it in the least.

This is one thing I actually do know about (and so this is in fact a rarity, as you may have noticed, I do like to hear myself talk, so to speak)

As for not changing much, well, let me explain to you something.

I agree with you. If gangsters want to kill each other, they will. I've seen people killed just as well with a knife or cricket bat as with a gun (oddly enough, I've never seen anyone play cricket.)

However, you cannot do a driveby and accidentaly kill the unsespecting woman or child on the street rather than your target, with a knife, nor can you shoot back at the police officer with a machete, nor again can you jump someone and shoot them before they know your there without a gun.

In short, the guns are not helping anything, and all the same, even if they were somehow good for justice and society, our goverment and our people do not want them around, plain and simple..

Also, guns aren't exactly difficult technology. With no outside source at all, it shouldn't take logn before the first home-made firearms started appearing. They would be ugly, and likely single-shot...but they would be guns.

First, yes, but they would not be from America.


Second, no one has the time to make themselves guns and the like in there home like that, with the exeception of very few nutjobs.

It wouldn't be much of a problem, and if a guy can only fire one round, then they won't be able to do much to stop a police officer anyway.

Finally, the only way you could even stop more guns from becoming available would be to combine strong border patrols with an absolute lack of guns inside the country. At the least, no guns for the police...those can find their way into the wrong hands easily enough at need. For that matter, in a pinch I bet military firearms could be 'liberated' to serve in the alleys.

No guns for police? I have never, ever, in my entire life, heard of, let alone seen, a gun stolen and re circulated in the streets from a police officer.

You would have too kill the officer, and people who go out and kill officers in the street usually don't stay in the street long, let me tell you.

And so no guns for police officers is completly rediculous.

As for police selling guns from there supply, that is rediculous. First, a regular constable on patrol, the kind that goes into the street, does not have anything to do with the supplies and such, and if they sold there own gun, they would be left unarmed, and in a shiload of trouble when they get back to the station.

And the people who do work in the supplies barely have that chance. If someone notices a few things missing, there screwed. And those guys aren't in the streets anyway.

Even if there was some way it could be feasibly done, I have a feeling police are not going to sell guns to the people who are likely to end up shooting at them. Would you?

And as for our army, same thing, execept infinitly more impossible.

Were not talking about Burkina Faso, this is Canada were talking about.


Might I add that were not talking about military grade weaponry either. What I am talking about is revolvers, nines, tech nines, and the like.

My personal opinion:

People say that violence would be as bad if guns were illegal, or if they were completely removed.

The UK violent crime rate, relative to population, is many MANY times lower than that of the US. The UK has extremely strict gun control laws. Yes, of course people can, and do, get hold of guns illegally. And of course, some of them use them. However, it's much harder to get them than it would be legally, and you also obviously cannot carry them openly. The fact that someone can be arrested for carrying a firearm makes it a lot more difficult for anyone who has managed to acquire one from using it.
There's also the fact that if you do not HAVE a gun, you cannot grab it in a fit of rage and shoot someone. Which I believe is not uncommon in the US, either. And as schme pointed out in his first post, it takes more effort to kill somebody, usually, with an alternative weapon.

In the words of a good friend of mine, "Testify, my brother!"

(In other words, that's essentialy my point, I agree, nice examples.)

Now, I'm not saying that immediately banning guns in the US would solve all their problems. It would not. For a start, the guns are already out there, legally or illegally, and it would be difficult to recover even a large proportion. It would still be a start. Part of the problem, though, is the culture as well.

I never said that either. To controll personal firearms in the united states at this point, to me, seems near infeasable, for a LARGE LARGE number of reasons, some of which you mention there.

I'm not asking the States to outlaw private weaponry. That's there bussiness, just like legalizing weed in our best interest should be our bussiness.

I just don't want American guns killing me.

I do not know enough on the situation in Canada to comment specifically on it.

Fair enough. I admire you for your honesty.

In fact, thank you.

As for the original aim of this topic:
A possible suggestion. If the Canadian government wants the US to tighten their border controls - why not lessen yours? If they wish to control the border into their country, and you aren't doing it FOR them - then they'll have to step up security on their side. It's going into their country - and they're not controlling what's coming into yours - so make them do it.
Of course. That may not have the desired effect. But at least it means you could devote more resources to what's coming into your country rather than what's going out.

Smuggling, of course, will ALWAYS happen even in the strictest societies. The best you can do is minimise it.

That does seem like something that might be very worth trying.

Put me in my place? You wish.

You may not think that it happened to you, but it did happen, despite your insistance on still being here.

As a fine and outstanding member of the NRA (I personally own 32 different guns) my opinion is going to be a bit lopsided.

good of you to acknoledge it.

When I say this, I mean it with all my heart Scheme. Stop being so simple minded. Do you really think that those guns you speak of only come from America? Honestly, when it comes to crime some people will go to any lengths to get what they want.

Not if it's impossible, or in this case, unprofitable.

Other countries do make guns and the like.

But we do not have the same kind of relations with those countries.

There guns can't get into our harbours and airports like yours can get across the border.

People over there can't make a profit in the current situation in illegally geting us armed, nor can our people make a profit.

Our dealers can't make a profit if they have to buy that expensive.

And besides, were not looking for old soviet weaponry and such, our dealers don't have political agendas. They wan't money.

The weapons dealers want money.

If theres not going to be profit involved, there not going to be involved.

And therefore, they ARE not involved.

That market is a figment of your imagination.

The American one is not.

And as for gun banning all together, forget it. I could see making it even harder to get a gun (even though it seems to take for freaking ever to get one now ((legaly that is)) But you'll never strip most Americans of thier guns. Its in the constitution for peetes sake. I live in Ohio and we just passed a law saying we can carry concealed firearms for safety reasons. Guns play a pivitole role in every countrys past. You can't just up and one day say we can't have them anymore.

If you read what I wrote before responding, you would see that I do not ask you to get rid of your guns. Blow yourselves to pieces, I won't try and stop you.

However, I would like myself and my fellow citzens to come out alive.

It sounds to me like you want to be like every country these days. Blame some random problem on the good Ol' US of A.[/quote]

You may not have noticed, Yo Yo, but I am not a country.

And I don't want to "Just blame the Ol' US of A".

If it were Bulgarians arming the streets, I would blame Bulgarians.

I am just putting the blame were it rightfully lies.

Hell, I wish it were the Bulgarians. Damn those Bulgarians...........

It's simple. America's like a litle kid (and is considering how long it's been about compared to other countires) and it needs to be different. Guns are just one of the things america uses to sustain its false purpose, American dream and all that stuff. Hegenmoy if you know what that means, thats what this is, hegenomy. Karl Marx would back me up on that one.

Its the same with all there rubbish sports which no one else plays and there insistance to ignore the fact that the biggest sports in the worldweren't made by them.

America is searching for a history, which at the moment it doesn't have.

I can't say I agree with you there.

It is much more complicated than that.

I have to say, that is simply untrue.

Well, perhaps true in some ways to some degree, but you cannot just explain away the situation of an entire country, let alone the greatest superpower in the world, away with something so small as that.

[Floyd]

Just out of interest... how many people have you actually seen Killed? 'cos the way your making out, you cant walk down a street in cannada without seeing someone get shot/stabbed or bludgeoned, surely you must be involved in some gang violence yourself to have seen so many violent killings?

[AoM]

As far as legalizing weed in Canada, I'm not going to argue against it. I'm for legalization. America's policy on THC is blown out of proportion, and as far as drugs go is quite hypocritical. Cigarettes and alcohol are just as much a drug as thc, only probably far worse. But those drugs have been "grandfathered" into our culture.

Doonesbury, one of the longest running political comic strips in America did a fairly good job of explaining the situation. It had a giant joint talking to a giant cigarette at some sort of "drug class reunion." The cigarette is bragging about an amazingly high number of people whose deaths it was responsible for... then turned to the joint and asked about its numbers... The joint is embarrassed and admits that it hasn't killed anybody, but it has put an almost equally amazingly high number of people in jail...


So I would like to see America lighten up and let Canada do what it wants with weed. Hell, I think that they should legalize it here too.

[Cookie]

Canada, wheres canada. *laughs*

No but seriously your country must have like disapeared or something because by the media you would never know it existed. You'll probably find most people over here don't know who rules your country and don't even know its capital. Theres a simple reason why comparing it to America or even Britain is ridiculous.

[Nick]

You'll probably find most people over here don't know who rules your country and don't even know its capital.

That's definately not something to blame Canada for.

[Cookie]

oh and yeh, nobody cares either.

[Schme]

Canada, wheres canada. *laughs*

No but seriously your country must have like disapeared or something because by the media you would never know it existed. You'll probably find most people over here don't know who rules your country and don't even know its capital. Theres a simple reason why comparing it to America or even Britain is ridiculous.

Nobody cares about England over here either, but you don't hear me preaching.

[Cookie]

but you don't hear me preaching.

Could of fooled me with those essay answers you posted above.

[Schme]

Just out of interest... how many people have you actually seen Killed? 'cos the way your making out, you cant walk down a street in cannada without seeing someone get shot/stabbed or bludgeoned, surely you must be involved in some gang violence yourself to have seen so many violent killings?

I'd really prefer not to talk so much about it at the moment, not with strangers over the internet.

I mean no offence by that, of course. I'd just rather not reminess. Not very pleasant memories, and I really not in the mood.

Canada is not of course, a Haiti, or a South Africa, but it's foolish to say we don't have problems. No, it's not that you walk down the street and see people being taken out. Not at all. In fact, I have to say, were ahead of alot of places in public order.

But that doesn't mean things don't happen.

The media does really underplay things like that.

That combined with the fact that people don't hear much about Canada makes people think things that aren't true.


But that's the case with most countries.

[Schme]

but you don't hear me preaching.

Could of fooled me with those essay answers you posted above.

Preaching about how nobody cares about England.

Now sod off, limey.


(I'm joking of course.)

[Cookie]

Preaching about how nobody cares about England.

Now sod off, limey.


(I'm joking of course.)

He hey, I'm getting slated by a Canadian. First time for everything.

Heres one for you: To a Canadian, what is a moose tied to a lamppost?

...a leisure centre!

(yep joking aswell!)

[Schme]

As far as legalizing weed in Canada, I'm not going to argue against it. I'm for legalization. America's policy on THC is blown out of proportion, and as far as drugs go is quite hypocritical. Cigarettes and alcohol are just as much a drug as thc, only probably far worse. But those drugs have been "grandfathered" into our culture.

Doonesbury, one of the longest running political comic strips in America did a fairly good job of explaining the situation. It had a giant joint talking to a giant cigarette at some sort of "drug class reunion." The cigarette is bragging about an amazingly high number of people whose deaths it was responsible for... then turned to the joint and asked about its numbers... The joint is embarrassed and admits that it hasn't killed anybody, but it has put an almost equally amazingly high number of people in jail...


So I would like to see America lighten up and let Canada do what it wants with weed. Hell, I think that they should legalize it here too.

Doonsberry is a great Cartoon. I always liked it.

Sadly, the United States won't let us, no matter the benefits.

Personally, I'm no druggie. I don't like that kind of stuff, in fact, growing up whith the people I did, were I did, I barely even drink.

I think people who toke up are damn stupid.

But the thing is, there are, for the nation of Canada, anyway, many many benefits to legalizing the devil's grass, and making it the same as ciggarettes.

But no matter the benefits for both nations, the United States goverment is too obssesed with the booze companies to help the people.

But let's not get into that.

That's a whole other kettle of fish.

[Schme]

Preaching about how nobody cares about England.

Now sod off, limey.


(I'm joking of course.)

He hey, I'm getting slated by a Canadian. First time for everything.

Heres one for you: To a Canadian, what is a moose tied to a lamppost?

...a leisure centre!

(yep joking aswell!)

nice.