The Religion Debate Thread

[new.vogue.nightmare]

As for Buddhism, it's less like a religion than almost any other religion. First of all, the various sects are so differentiated that they have almost nothing in common. In addition, the part of Buddhism that gets popularized the most is its lessons about lifestyle and thinking, as opposed to most religions, where the first thing is "Jesus Christ is the Son of God" or "There is no God but God and Muhammad is his prophet" or whatever. This may be because of the differentiation, which has the effect of reducing the core common to all or most Buddhists to those human values.

The thing with Buddhism is I think it doesn't rely on a god. Buddhists follow the teachings of the Buddha, Siddhartha Gautama. It deals enough with spiritual nature to be a religion though.

[thingnumber2]

I do respect the individual that has a belief but organised religion is the worst con there is.

Exactly. I know one lady who has to give 10% of every paycheck to her church or she gets "kicked out". Then every where you look new churches are being built, many of the ones I've seen that probly run way more then a million dollars (I know for a fact several I'm done cabinets in cost alot more) yet churches claim to be there for the people when it's obvious that they aren't.

And I'm not even going to get into the child molestation that's been in the news the last few years and the vaticans reply, or lack of one...yet through all of it the people just look the other way, they know better, but they get so sucked into the church's BS that they are unwilling to fight it.

Alot of good people have been ruined by religion and tricked into doing things and putting up with things that they would otherwise have never thought about, all because they aren't willing ot believe that what they see around them is all there is and that they only have one try at life in this plane or any other.

ok, not picking on ephiroll here, but I'd just like to point out, this is the kind of generalization Jake was trying to keep out of this forum....not every person who considers themselves a christian is like this, not every church is like this....in fact I'll bet the majority of churches are perfectly fine, normal, and even beneficial to people...they're not all scams, believe me, I've been to quite a few moving all over the place....


just so ya know, I'm not attacking anyone personally when I talk...just against generalizing assumptions...

[rklenseth]

Most Celtic Religions believed that tree spirits, rock spirits etc... were Gods within themselves. This is where sort of the theory about Gaia comes in that somehow all of these spirits are connected and form one almighty being. Gaia is a Japanese thing but it is very close to how a lot of Celtic religions thought the spirits worked.

In Roman Catholicism, it is believed we are all part of God. God used parts of himself to create the universe. So this being said, we are all part of God and everything is part of God. That is why Celtic religion so easily worked with Catholicism is that a lot of te beliefs were the same.

My personal belief is that all religions are the same. They preach the same word just in different ways. Now saying that I think there is only one God or one Supreme Being and that over time people looked at this one Supreme Being and saw it in different ways so that is why it exists in different ways today but it is also why the main message seems to be the same because it is the same because it comes from the same Supreme Being.

If you ever take religious studies or do it as a hobby you will notice pretty fast as similiar many of the stories are. Take the Old Testament with Moses and the Iriqious Legend. Both have a baby being born to a virgin mother who doesn't want anyone to know she had a illegitimate child so they put them in baskets in a river and leave them to die but someone comes along and saves their life and raises them and then both of the babies become great men and leaders to their people. Both also claimed to be working for a higher being. Just a coincidence. Maybe but there are too many coincidences in life for all of them to be coincidences.

[grayjaket]

Eeek. . . Sir Isaac Newton. . . *hides*

@Jake: How does the Bible prove science wrong? The Bible is a book. A book cannot prove anything wrong in and of itself, it can only state arguments. Arguments in and of themselves cannot prove or disprove anything without evidence.

I would have to agree with |west|'s statement. Science is a tool. Nuclear power can be used either to destroy cities or to generate electricity. Science is not inherently good or evil. Similarly, religion means different things to different people. Religions can cause inhumane wars or inspire humanitarian efforts. Religion is not inherently good or evil. Neither are there any inherently good or evil religions. Christianity was a driving force behind the Crusades. It is also behind a large portion of the humanitarian aid in the world today.

It doesn't prove neccessarily. What I meant was, that things in the Bible have contradicted past science and turned out in the end to be right. The Bible has never been proven wrong by science.

[kroner]

umm... i think your going to have to support that with some evidence... until then, just no.

[grayjaket]

I will, but right now I'm kinda busy, in a couple hours...

[boomhaeur]

I normally stay out of religion discussions. I was made to go to church when I was a kid, and by the time I was 10 I'd already decided for myself that it was a bunch of nonsense.

Basically, I beleive that religon is a refugee for the weakminded and insecure who are unable to deal with life's problems on their own, and lack the ability to be their own master.

I'm a firm believer that science is mankinds salvation, not religion, which has been responsible for more death and destruction then ANYTHING else on earth or in mankinds history all rolled together.

The world would be a happier place without any kind of religon, and religon has ALWAYS proved to be wrong when compared to real science. Religon is nothing more then a relic carried over from a more ignorant and superstitious time in human history.

I perssonally find it hard to believe that church's can continue to grow in our world of mass media with people having so much knowledge at their fingertips, I actually feel pity for people who choose to waste their lives chasing a myth that will never do them any more good then what they can do for themselves.

But that's my two cents.

Dude.

Out.of.my.head

Now!

(I would have typed this alomst word for word...)

[/quote]

[trage]

Most people think that Religion is the driving force in the conflicts in the Middle East. Now tell me if you live on a small area of land that Isreal took and is almost always fighting for, what do you think you would do? I honestly would take up arms and defend where I live. Yes they started their nation there for the reason that it had some of the most religious areas in the world relating to the Bible. Now the palastinines attacked them because they also had religious grounds there. That is why there is constant fighting over there. Think of the six day war. If you were attacked by multiple states that wanted you dead would you not defend your nation? Isreal has been fighting for their state and their lives for quite some time. That is why there is so much conflict over there. There is also a bone deep sense of determination because if they lose a war they all die.

Now yes I am Baptist Christian. Just to make that clear. Oh and I did not say let us revert to no technology I was just stating that technology made the weapons that are responsible for the killing. It is not science's fault that so many are dead, but it is not religion's fault either. Religion is one of the many driving forces in war, but if there were no religions people would find other reasons to bludgeon each other to death. No matter what you do there will be problems in the world and people will die. It is a futile attempt to bring about world peace by human means.

[The Hunter]

I normally stay out of religion discussions. I was made to go to church when I was a kid, and by the time I was 10 I'd already decided for myself that it was a bunch of nonsense.

Basically, I beleive that religon is a refugee for the weakminded and insecure who are unable to deal with life's problems on their own, and lack the ability to be their own master.

I'm a firm believer that science is mankinds salvation, not religion, which has been responsible for more death and destruction then ANYTHING else on earth or in mankinds history all rolled together.

The world would be a happier place without any kind of religon, and religon has ALWAYS proved to be wrong when compared to real science. Religon is nothing more then a relic carried over from a more ignorant and superstitious time in human history.

I perssonally find it hard to believe that church's can continue to grow in our world of mass media with people having so much knowledge at their fingertips, I actually feel pity for people who choose to waste their lives chasing a myth that will never do them any more good then what they can do for themselves.

But that's my two cents.

Dude.

Out.of.my.head

Now!

(I would have typed this alomst word for word...)

[/quote]

Damn. You too?

Anyway. It's not just religion. People will eventually find themselves a group of simular minded people and call themselves "us". They're always the good guys, and will fight "them", ofcourse, the "bad" guy's. So in the end it's always a us vs them matter. Religion just makes it easier IMHO.

[Sho]

First, the nitpicking.

Gaia's not a Japanese thing!! Gaia is the name of a Greek goddess, I think. The modern concept of Gaia as the world viewed as a single organism originatated with some British biologist, I think. No doubt RKL is referring to something else that I don't know about, but I seriously doubt it has anything to do with Japan. At any rate, the term is definitely not Japanese.

Israel, not Isreal.

@whoever said that thing which half the people agree with and half hate: I doubt mass media will seriously harm religion. First of all, religion has been doing just fine in the United States through half a century of radio and television. If anything, I think mass media has helped religion here because it can transmit the voice of a single televangelist across the globe. The degree to which people are informed about current events or the current state of knowledge has little to do with religion. Religion is by and large not a coverup that can be brought tumbling down by a few well chosen pieces of information. Many religious groups refrain from stating anything strictly at odds with current scientific knowledge, such as creationism. (There are those that do, of course, and there are regions where they are common enough to cause trouble.) Religion is, in one of its simplest forms, no more than a way of viewing life. Saying (hypothetically) "I have scientific proof that Jesus never existed!" wouldn't kill Christianity. It would (aside from any holdouts trying to counter the evidence) shift to a more, if you will, Buddhistic religion.

[Psycho Pixie]

first let me ask, why am I getting into this debate? My first thought when reading this thread, aside from my little joke on the first page is "oh my gods, Cantr is screwed now"

Why do I think this? Because its been my experience that people who get along great, turn on eachother like rabid dogs when they realize they have different belief systems. I have watched it happen before and will tell you as a major caution. don't do that to this group.

Now, First, a quick note, I am not a theology major, I am not a devil worshipper and I am not Christian or Catholic or buddest or any of the typical religious denominations.

I am utterly, completely and profoundly against organized religion. I have gone to church, to mass, to meetings to sunday classes, to saterday classes... I have spoken at length with many different priests from many different groups. The conclusion I come to more often then not it this: It does not matter what you name it, it doesnt matter how many different names it has, if you believe in a higher power, all is fine and dandy.

Only one priest ever argued with me or tryed to convert me, the guy even got angry because I was asking him questions and not bouncing merrily to the church to convert immidiately. He was a mormon priest. but he was old and set in his ways, so maybe it was just him. Mormons have good family Values. Christians and Catholics have good moral values and eastern religions in general have good life lessons and overall are more encouraging of personal growth....

So I take a bit from here, a bit from there and oh... how about a little smidge of that idea... and presto! I got my personal belief system that I can live with, and which wont send me to hell for goofing up every once in a while. I believe in God, Budda, Dianna, whatever name you want to give it. I believe there is something out there, something guideing and helping and hopeing we all do the right thing.

I do not believe that there is something out there, waiting for us to screw up, I do not believe that if I do screw up I will be punished for eternity. I do not believe that "God" Throws different situations at us just so we run around like chickens with our heads chopped off, frantically trying to cope with the ordeal he delt us. I do not believe God will hurt us more then is needed to grow as humans, to grow our souls into higher, richer and more aware selves.

God(life) won't throw at you what you cannot handle. THAT I do believe. And I believe in LIFE, in all its forms and wonders, that life, in and of itsself, is a higher power.

You can call it a pagan belief, Some people have even said I sound very... druidic... like oooold beliefs,celtic beliefs. But I believe in life. that works for me, I dont care what its called.


My two cents said. I am done now.

Hugs to all!

Psycho Pixie

[Psycho Pixie]

~~~snipped out some~~~

Now yes I am Baptist Christian. Just to make that clear. Oh and I did not say let us revert to no technology I was just stating that technology made the weapons that are responsible for the killing. It is not science's fault that so many are dead, but it is not religion's fault either. Religion is one of the many driving forces in war, but if there were no religions people would find other reasons to bludgeon each other to death. No matter what you do there will be problems in the world and people will die. It is a futile attempt to bring about world peace by human means.

Religion was the main reason for the holy crusades, those killed how many people? and still effect the borders and laws of how many countrys to this day?

but you are very correct, stupid humans fight over anything.... women, money, Gods, land, words, ideas, insults, compliments, even over food. go figure.

[grayjaket]

First, the nitpicking.

Gaia's not a Japanese thing!! Gaia is the name of a Greek goddess, I think. The modern concept of Gaia as the world viewed as a single organism originatated with some British biologist, I think. No doubt RKL is referring to something else that I don't know about, but I seriously doubt it has anything to do with Japan. At any rate, the term is definitely not Japanese.

Israel, not Isreal.

@whoever said that thing which half the people agree with and half hate: I doubt mass media will seriously harm religion. First of all, religion has been doing just fine in the United States through half a century of radio and television. If anything, I think mass media has helped religion here because it can transmit the voice of a single televangelist across the globe. The degree to which people are informed about current events or the current state of knowledge has little to do with religion. Religion is by and large not a coverup that can be brought tumbling down by a few well chosen pieces of information. Many religious groups refrain from stating anything strictly at odds with current scientific knowledge, such as creationism. (There are those that do, of course, and there are regions where they are common enough to cause trouble.) Religion is, in one of its simplest forms, no more than a way of viewing life. Saying (hypothetically) "I have scientific proof that Jesus never existed!" wouldn't kill Christianity. It would (aside from any holdouts trying to counter the evidence) shift to a more, if you will, Buddhistic religion.

Creationism is NOT strictly at odds with current scientific knowledge. It's as much at odds with scientific knowledge as evolution. What do you base that on Sho? Have you studied all of this? You can't make assumptions like that without backing it up with some proof. Is evolution scientific? Yes and no. Evolution is a theory. THEORY. It is not fact, yet it is treated as such. Creationism is a theory also but it is shot down and rejected. Why is that? Why are people so against religion? Why are people so against a God who dislikes sin? Could it be that they don't wanna be accountable? They'd much rather have a God who makes everything all fine and dandy for them, so they don't have to think about it. The universal god that is every god from every religion, so everyone can live in harmony(which they still don't and never will).

Also, in response to the thing about the crusades. Yes, religion caused the crusades, but practically no Christians think that way anymore, just like no person nowadays would agree with practiced of the middle ages. I'm not saying it was right because of the times either, just pointing that out. World War 1 wasn't caused by religion. World War 2 either. Lots of major wars have been caused by man's greed, selfishness, and sin. But you choose to point out the few things caused by religion. Believe me when I say this, religion has caused more good then harm.

Oh one more thing, you are doing it again, grouping all religions together as if they ALL are the same or did the same things. Please try to avoid that, as it doesn't make sense. The only reason I did it back there was because it was arguing against your points where you did that

[trage]

Ohk sory eye mad wone speling mistak soe sew meh.

[kroner]

jake, evolution is in complete keeping with scientific knowledge. creationism is strictly not. i could go into why, but i really don't feel like it. evolution is still called a theory the same way relativity is... except that evolution is even more intuitively obvious and provable. darwin was a genius... really.

and you still haven't given me any examples of where the bible proves science wrong! i'm waiting ever so patiently.