Religions

[gejyspa]

@gejyspa - Christians believe that Jesus was both fully human and fully God. This duality is one of the many mysteries of our faith.

In my religion we believe that Jesus Christ lived a mortal life, was resurrected (and thereby receiving a perfect and eternal body except for his crucifixion wounds) and became perfect and complete, like God the Father. They are both perfect, so their will is the same. Something also, that I guess may seem like an odd idea, is that we believe that Jesus Christ was the Lord of the Old Testament and also, under the direction of God, created the Earth and everything therein....

Yeah, I am fully aware of both the Catholic and LDS views of him. But what I was hoping to explain was that those ideas of Messiah (or indeed, any being) being both a man and divine (in whatever combination folks happen to believe it... there are plenty of variations among the various denominations, as well as those considered heresies) is an idea that is alien to Judaism (although it did appear in other religions around at that time). Which directly segues into this:

Oh, and I have to ask, why do you use Xtians and J instead of their proper terms? It's almost like you're superstitious and uttering them would have some ill effect, like saying Voldemort.

I was hoping to avoid this question coming up. I COULD truthfully say the abbreviation "Xtian/Xian" has been around for over 400 years, and was invented by your coreligionists, so what's the problem? I could also say "What? You have no problem with "OMG", "LOL" and "FTW", but I can't say "J"? But both would be ducking the question. The answer, which I sincerely hope you won't be offended by, because I am not intending to offend, is that I am forbidden from doing so by the Torah. See Ex. 13:23

Now, onto other issues:

"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
Here, I was referring to the fact that Jesus Christ was pierced in his side at the crucifixion.

And see, that's the problem with not knowing enough Hebrew to read it in the original. Here is the original:

...
וְהִבִּיטוּ אֵלַי, אֵת אֲשֶׁר-דָּקָרוּ; וְסָפְדוּ עָלָיו, כְּמִסְפֵּד עַל-הַיָּחִיד, וְהָמֵר עָלָיו, כְּהָמֵר עַל-הַבְּכוֹר

Which means "and they shall look unto Me because they have stabbed (the Hebrew can also be read as "because of those who have been stabbed") and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born." You see, the object of "stabbed" is missing. In any case, reading it in context with v. 1-9 you can see it's referring to a siege of Jerusalem, and the object is either the fallen amongst the defenders, or metaphorically, Jerusalem itself. But it does not say "me" in the Hebrew. In any case, in your version, why the sudden switch from 1st to 3rd person? Doesn't seem to make much sense.

In chapter 13, we don't even have to go to the Hebrew. Again, read the whole chapter, not just a single line out of context. We are talking here about false prophets, those associated with idolatry (v.2-3), who will try to hide their identity and pretend to be just farmers (v.4-5) and when questioned about their suspicious wounds (from being flogged) will say that they had been chastised by their friends. (v. 6) In other words, these two chapters are not a prophesy about the Messiah at all (although they are about what happens during the end times)

Daniel 7:13-14 This IS a prophecy about the Messiah, and that he shall come (presumably at the start of his reign? I admit I'm not sure) accompanied by the clouds of heaven.

[Joshuamonkey]

Again, read the whole chapter, not just a single line out of context.

I did read and consider both chapters.

In fact, both chapters 12 and 13 contain interesting prophecies about what happens in Jerusalem at His coming

And I did again. I still disagree as to the meaning. I also don't think that the whole chapter needs to be directly about the Messiah in order for a specific verse to be talking about Him, even if it's an analogy. This is a good example of why there are different religions. It isn't just about the translation, but also about what signifies what, and what the Lord was really talking about. Because of this, (I believe) the only way to really know what the scriptures mean is through revelation, to pray about it, or for inspired prophets to get revelation and explain scripture for you.
About chapter 12, though, isn't it about Jerusalem being a great nation that will fight and win against other nations. And then after verse 10 it says "In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem" and verses after that are pretty much about mourning. So what are they mourning about if the Lord is helping them to defeat all their enemies (12:9)?
Also, what about the fact that the Bible talks about two differing times of the Lord's coming? (which I talked about in an earlier post).

[gejyspa]

About chapter 12, though, isn't it about Jerusalem being a great nation that will fight and win against other nations. And then after verse 10 it says "In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem" and verses after that are pretty much about mourning. So what are they mourning about if the Lord is helping them to defeat all their enemies (12:9)?

It's about a siege against Jerusalem, and yes, they do ultimately win with God's help, but that doesn't mean there will be no casualties. That is why they will all mourn.

Also, what about the fact that the Bible talks about two differing times of the Lord's coming? (which I talked about in an earlier post).

I still haven't seen anything you've quoted that points to two comings. In fact, I haven't seen you even give more than two passages about the Messiah himself (Neither Isaiah 7:14 nor Isaiah 9:5-6 nor Malachi 3:2 is a messianic prophecy. That you leaves you with Micah 5:2, and Daniel 7:13-14, which I already talked about)

In any case, I didn't think the point of this thread was to be a disputation (which I'm thoroughly prepared to defend Judaism, if it comes to that), since no one will change their belief system based on this (nor am I trying to do so), and we'll likely just turn off other readers of this thread. Rather, I thought it simply to be an exchange of information about our respective beliefs?

[Joshuamonkey]

Rather, I thought it simply to be an exchange of information about our respective beliefs?

Fair enough.

[gejyspa]

Like, here's a good question I don't know the answer to. Do members of LDS "do" Halloween? Orthodox Jews don't (although there was at least one great American Rabbi (considered to be one of the giants among rabbinic minds in the past 100 years) who said that it was okay to give out candy to the neighborhood kids under the principle of keeping good relations with our non-Jewish neighbors, but not for our own families to go out trick-or-treating). And I know that members of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (i.e., the Witnesses) don't. Do you guys?

[Joshuamonkey]

I think I knew a Jewish family in a past neighborhood who didn't celebrate Halloween, interestingly enough.
LDS do. We also have a Halloween activity around the time of Halloween where we have Halloweenish activities and other random activities. At least in my area, one of things we do at that activity is use cars instead of houses and the kids collect candy from people at their cars.

[Snickie]

I stopped trick-or-treating at age 10, in 2005 because "I'm too old for it." I know teenagers older than me who still do it, though, mostly for the free candy. And people who decorate their houses with spiderwebs and fake graves and bats and pumpkins and the like. Most people hand out candy. Nowadays, my family only hands out candy to people who happen to wander down our street.

Our church started holding a "Fall Festival" starting in 2008 where they have games, candy, contests (usually costume contests), music (Christian, of course), et cetera. They hold it on the Friday of the week of Halloween (which also happens to be my high school's Homecoming football game). Apparently it's really popular, and it's a good recruitment ( <-- a term I use loosely) tactic. Each year it's more than doubled in attendance--they had over 10,000 people come this year, and had buses constantly shuttling people to and from parking at one of the nearby middle schools. They don't do it to "celebrate" Halloween, but rather as a source of monetary income (to pay the bills and help out families in need) as well as a way to turn people on to the church. Of course, my family hasn't gone since the first year they had it (2008) as it's too crowded for our tastes now, and in any case I have obligations to the Homecoming football game that same evening.

I admit I'm not well enough researched to be able to give at least a semi-accurate idea of God's views on events like Halloween... I imagine it's in the Torah somewhere, although I could be wrong.

[Addicted]

I can give the catholic viewpoint:

In one sense we invented it with 'all souls day' the feast that falls at this time along with 'all saints day'. We pray for those who have died on the first and ask those in the second to intercede for us.

But we don't celebrate it in any 'American' way with the spooky stuff considered wrong by many. The church takes a tolerant line at the 'fun' aspect of it, as long as we remember it is just that and not related to our faith in any way. Australians don't really do halloween in a big way anyway. I figure it is like Christmas and Easter. The true meanings of these feasts have been replaced by good feelings and blatant commercialism.

[gejyspa]

(The following post refers to the American Orthodox Jewish experience and refers to holidays which may be unknown to my non-American readers. Apologies)

The Orthodox Jewish aversion to Halloween rests on several pillars. First is the general dictum not to celebrate the holidays of other religions (especially, but not exclusively, idol-worshipping ones). Despite its currently secular nature, we don't forget its pagan origins. Second, we're not too thrilled with message sent by this holiday -- greed. Not that we don't have an opportunity to have fun dressing up in costumes. We do that on the holiday of Purim. And on it, we go to friends' houses, and give the householder gifts of food. We also give money to the poor.

We have similar problems with Valentine's Day, again being derived from pagan origins. And we object to the trivializing of what should be adult romantic relationships by marketing it to school children (of course, if a married couple wants to have a quiet romantic dinner at home on Feb. 14, there's no "thought police" running around stopping them).

Almost all OJ do celebrate Thanksgiving, though (we fully approve of a day devoted to giving thanks, especially to God. After all, we thank God before even eating a candy bar or taking a drink of water). Similarly, we celebrate Independence day, and all federal holidays with the exception of December 25 (I should hope by now I shouldn't have to explain why). We are very grateful that we live in a country where we can practice our religion freely and openly, and to the people who have fought and died to keep that dream alive not only for us, but for all Americans.

[Joshuamonkey]

I know teenagers older than me who still do it, though, mostly for the free candy.

I think I did last year, and I know a 17-year old who did it this year (though in a group, and coincidentally he's also in my religion). I handed out candy.
I should mention also that it's against my religion's policy to wear face masks. The only holidays we celebrate during a Sunday church meeting are Christmas, Easter, Mother's Day, and Father's Day. This usually involves the children 12 and under doing some song or act (which just involves them speaking). Sometimes for Christmas there may be special music or the choir may perform something (which I'm almost always in).

[gejyspa]

Oh, yeah, we do father's day and mother's day, too (although we are aghast that there should be a separate day set oaside for honoring your parents, which should be a 24/7 kind of thing, paralleling our feelings about Thanksgiving)

[Abe]

I don't want to comment on Halloween because it is utterly foreign to me. I've never seen anyone do any Halloween stuff, although some people here do what you Americans do. All saints day is different. From wikipedia:

"In Austria, Belgium, France, Hungary, Italy, Luxembourg, Malta, Portugal and Spain people bring flowers to the graves of dead relatives. In Poland, the Czech Republic, Sweden, Finland, Slovenia, Slovakia, Lithuania, Croatia, Austria, Romania, Moldova, Hungary and Catholic parts of Germany, the tradition is to light candles and visit the graves of deceased relatives."

It is a national holiday here in Hungary and observed by generally everyone - Catholic or not, religious or not. I think gejyspa's last parenthetical note also applies here though...

Now something interesting about Christmas:
http://thehistoryofrome.blogspot.com/2008/01/18-history-of-rome-christmas-history-of.html

[Miri]

Poland here *raises her hand*
Nov 1st (All Saints) is a national holiday, however Nov 2nd (All Souls) is not, leaving us with just one day to visit graves on a holiday day. We do both flowers and lights countrywise, and also food in some eastern regions - both fire and food being remains of pagan Dziady, I'm not sure about flowers.

Halloween is generally frowned upon by more traditional/religious part of the society, but it has been steadily growing more popular over last few years - after al it's just another way to get people money, so why not? The younger ones seem to feel appealed by the fun-having side of it, especially with tradition/faith here being full of pathos and being patriotic in a meaning of getting foolishly killed for your honour and country, this way or the other. Americans, I really envy your gospel choirs
Anyway - I think it happened for the very first time this year, although I may be wrong - HolyWins parade of angels and saints was organised to give an alternative
http://warszawa.gazeta.pl/warszawa/1,90 ... odzie.html (in polish - but you can still watch the movie)
I really hope this kind of attitude will survive and grow strong enough to chase the Halloween away, I don't really like it personally. I'm not a particullary good catho., and I don't care much about it's pagan origins, but it feels wrong to me. Dressing up as bad things and somehow stating they're actually ok, and it's all just about fun... Or maybe it's just me. I don't like carnivals.

[Joshuamonkey]

Dressing up as bad things and somehow stating they're actually ok, and it's all just about fun... Or maybe it's just me. I don't like carnivals.

Well, at least my family doesn't dress up as demons or witches, as far as I know. Every family has their own rules I guess. One of my sisters dressed up as a Super Smash Bros. character (with friends as other characters) and another dressed up as a skittle (with friends as other colors). I've seen Mary Poppins, Alice in Wonderland, "colorful personalities", and a few kids came to my house caroling with Christmas outfits..I've also seen a lot of other good examples. So, it depends.

[BrentW]

Halloween is a purely Pagan Holiday. So is all saints day but made more.."modern". Most holidays are pagan when you move into a new area to bring your religion best to take the peoples holidays.