What were they thinking

[formerly known as hf]

I guess it could be looked at as "Why do cops get to have guns?"

They don't
well, at least not in most of the UK
Why?
Because gun laws are exceptionally strict here. The police do not carry guns, as they are very unlikely to come across a crminal with one (unless in London)

It is a very similar situation with nuclear weapons - we have a nuclear arsenal because 'they' have them (whoever 'they' may be)

If 'they' did not have nuclear wepons - would we reduce our arsenal - no, I don't think so - it's too late, that step was taken.
Also, it works vice versa. If we disarm our nuclear arsenal - will 'they' - no, 'they' won't...

[Stan]

USA steps on everyone, including UN.

Oh really? Who pays 25% of the entire UN budget? It is a disfunctional entity, yet we continue to pay the bills.

Sweden rarely does anything. They don't step on anybody but they rarely help either. It's always hilarious how people on the sidelines want to mock the actual players on the field.

Another key difference between America and much of the rest of the world...when someone attacks us we don't wait around for a commitee to agree that it's ok for us to do something about it.

[west]

Yeah, sometimes we don't even wait for them to attack us, or have the capability, or show the intent...

How's that Iraq thing going for us? Pretty good, eh? Good thing we got to them before they became a breeding ground for terrorists.

[Stan]

Yeah, sometimes we don't even wait for them to attack us, or have the capability, or show the intent...

How's that Iraq thing going for us? Pretty good, eh? Good thing we got to them before they became a breeding ground for terrorists.

In fact, Zarqawi was in Baghdad before we even went in...before most of us even knew who he was. I believe he was being attended to for an injury sustained in Afghanistan.

Frankly, I disagree with you on how well it is going. Though I wouldn't say things are great, but considering the casualties vs other conflicts I think it's going amazingly well. (though a single injury or death of civilian or soldier is one too many)

It isn't newsworthy to discuss the great things going on with the people of Iraq...especially the Shiites. That's unfortunate. The suicide bombings and the beheadings seem to be more interesting to most of the world. Makes sense to me since human beings crave that sort of thing.

America is definitely losing the media battle. We need to make sure the other side of the story gets reported. As far as becoming a breeding ground for terrorists, I not only disagree, but I think you have it virtually completely wrong. Terrorists aren't being bred in Iraq for the most part. It is being infected by terrorists from other places that want a piece of America. Bring it on. I'd rather them face Americans prepared to fight (soldiers) than face my children or mothers and fathers going off to work in an office building somewhere.

So, yeah, I think it beats the alternative. Ask an Iraqi who now gets to vote and has an opportunity to succeed in life how the future looks, instead of worrying about how it affects you and America's image.

By the way, you do realize that from the time America declared independence until the time America voted for it's first president there were a few years in between, right? Things like this take some time and sacrifice. It isn't like clicking on a web link and sitting at your monitor waiting for the page to load.

I see impatience as a root cause for the much of the grumbling. Rome wasn't built in a day, they say. Nor should we expect it in Baghdad.

[Lauren]

I would have less of an issue with this "war" if it was actually a war.

According to the Constitution, only Congress can declare war. No declaration of war has come out of Congress since World War Two.

[Stan]

Again, whether or not a commitee deemed it a war or not is really irrelevant. You do realize congress voted for the "action", right? Ask Iraqis or soldiers alike if it is a war. You know what they say about ducks...conflict, war, trip to the mall. Call it whatever the discussion hasn't changed.

[Stan]

Another victory caused by the action in Iraq:

"United Arab Emirates (UAE) President Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed al-Nahayan announced on Thursday that the oil-rich Gulf state is to hold its first elections, in a move towards reforms.

"We have decided to boost the role of the consultative council by electing half of its members through councils in each emirate," Sheikh Khalifa said in an address marking the national day of the seven-member federation.

He said the process of choosing the new council would start early next year and there would be no restrictions on the participation of women. Candidates will be able to campaign on radio and television and put up billboards."

Women voting in UAE? Who would have ever thought?

[Savanik]

I would have less of an issue with this "war" if it was actually a war.

According to the Constitution, only Congress can declare war. No declaration of war has come out of Congress since World War Two.

That's what I keep trying to tell people. 'Stop the war in Iraq'? Ok. Done. Our army is there at the request of their legitimately appointed government. If their didn't want us over there... well, they'd be pretty stupid at this point, but we'd probably pull out.

Sav

[Chris Johnson]

Another victory caused by the action in Iraq:

"United Arab Emirates (UAE) President Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed al-Nahayan announced on Thursday that the oil-rich Gulf state is to hold its first elections, in a move towards reforms.

Women voting in UAE? Who would have ever thought?

That is excellent news, Just leaves Brunei where there is no sufferage, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait where there is only Male sufferage and the Vatican City , where suffrage is limited to Cardinals under the age of 80 (and therefore Male only) , (not many of those in the Axis of Evil eh ?)

I'd query however how much this move to limited Adult sufferage was due to the action in Iraq. There has been a string pro-democracy movement in UAE for many years now , and pressure by UAE's western allies predates the Iraq War.


Of course full adult sufferage is not IMHO the end in itself (as all countires now have it except for thiose I mentioned above) but it helps

[formerly known as hf]

Another victory caused by the action in Iraq

I'd like to hear further ideas as to how this is related to the situation in Iraq?

The lines that you quoted make no reference to Iraq, neither does anything official to come out of the UAE

Any link between female suffrage in the UAE and Iraq seems somewhat tenuous. As Chris pointed out, there has been a pro-democracy movement there for quite some time, and the US as well as other countries have somewhat pushed that move, from before the Iraq situation.

The only link I can imagine is that the UAE may be m,oving forward with fairer democracy because of fear of US invasion? I doubt that is something the UAE have to be fearful of, and I'm sure they realise that.

[formerly known as hf]

Rome wasn't built in a day, they say. Nor should we expect it in Baghdad.

At least Rome was built by the Romans, or, at least, slaves under the order of Romans.

Baghdad and Iraq is being 'rebuilt' under the very close watch, and control, of the US government. It is no coincidence that the party 'fairly elected' was the party with the most US finincial and political backing - and the party agreed to allow large numbers of US companies to be involved in the rebuilding and future oil extraction

[KiNG KiLL]

Stan wrote:

Sweden rarely does anything. They don't step on anybody but they rarely help either. It's always hilarious how people on the sidelines want to mock the actual players on the field. Laughing

Who the hell said anything about Sweden? You know, I don't defend Sweden's politics just beacuse I'm born here... can you same the same thing about yourself and being born in USA? If I think the government act wrong, I'm not afraid to say so...

And please explain to me why USA gets to chose wich dictator or regime that are to be ally or foe? And don't say that it depends on their behaviour, when US forces are the ones who trained terrorists and supported Saddam Hussein earlier? I'm sure those guys didn't just turned nasty over a few years...

And if you want democricy... UN stands for that. How many contries supported the idea of the war against Iraq? Was it... 6? It looks like USA is the dictator of the world...

[El_Skwidd]

There's a saying hanging in my US History classroom.

"Patriotism is supporting your country all of the time and your government when they deserve it."

Yeah, it might seem like just a funny quote at first glance, but it has a lot of meaning to me. I can dis Bush and damn the war in Iraq 'till you'd think I wasn't born and raised here, but I still stand behind my country. I think its important to draw that line in a debate like this.

And that's all I'll say before I get carried away.

[Talapus]

I think you are right on the mark El_Skwidd. I feel the exact same way.

[Stan]

I agree as well. It's the whole point of America. I just happen to believe that in the long run the work in Iraq will prove to be the right move. With people dying and war still looming I can't argue the point. But, I believe it was and is the right thing to do...regardless of whether the rest of the world and many Americans disagree with it.

I know lots of situations where "well meaning people" stood around and let evil things happen because they didn't want to get involved for one reason or another. Sorry if you disagree, that's your choice. But I believe anyone who thinks it was a mistake is wrong.

I want to hear one strong argument as to why having an Iraq free of a dictator and free people voting, etc is a bad thing. One argument. I hear gibberish about America supported Saddam (so does/did Russia and France). I hear gibberish about George Bush lying about why to go to Iraq. I never heard the rest of the world call him on this supposed lie when they decided not to go to Iraq (what was the reason then? What will the reason be in the future?). I hear people say that things are being destroyed and people are dying. People died before and things were destroyed in the past in many different cases with Hussein was in power. The fact that something is hard and sacrifice must be made is NO EXCUSE for NOT DOING something....that happens to be the same reason many people stand around doing nothing.

BTW, Iraq will be rebuilt by Iraqis. Things like rebuilding a nation after decades of dictatorship happens more quickly than 2 years.

Also, I think Syria pulling out of Lebanon and voting occuring in other parts of the middle east is not coincidentally happening at the same time as the work in Iraq. Things may have been in the works for years but the catalyst was action in Iraq...more to come as well.