Cheap Northern Drugs, Cheap Southern Guns,and The Mob on Top

[Schme]

What the hell is going on in this thread?

For godamn sakes!

If your not going to say anything, don't post! C'mon people!

[Schme]

Schme, I think whether or not guns are good to have and to be legalized in America is not only very relevant to this topic, it IS the topic. You're angry and fearing for your life because American guns are in Canadian gangster hands. And the solution you seem to be spouting is that we should make guns illegal...

...but that's not how we view it. Our little "militia thing" has a valid arguement to it, as RKL was pointing out. There is a moral and ethical counter arguement to your view that guns should be illegal, but you downplay that as "irrelevant." Try to be a little open-minded... you sure as hell claim to be.

Believe it or not, we've got mob problems too. I'd wager we have it a lot worse than you. Bad people, who are willing to go to great lengths to acquire a piece so that they can dominate an illegal market are going to get guns, no matter what. If America illegalized guns tomorrow and went door to door collecting every registered gun, I can safely assure you that there'd still be a lot of guns out there, and they'd be in all the wrong hands.

Americans believe in the right to bear arms and to defend one's self, family and property. We will most probably continue to believe this. Therefore, the solution that you are looking for is neither realistic nor is it necessarily on the moral highground. It's Canada's choice on how you regulate your criminals and how you contain them. We certainly like to crack down on our potheads.


In the end, your anger would be better directed at the Canadian gun-running criminals than at the big bad USA. This is a classic example of displacement, and frankly your naive, holier-than-thou articulation isn't going to win you the respect points you need for a decent topic discussion.

I never said I wanted you to make guns illegal. You guys can shoot every last one of yourselves to death if you like. I'd be sad, but I'd be alive.



All I want you to do is perhaps do something about the opportunists selling cheap weapons to mobsters who sell them to murderers. Murderers selling weapons to fucking murderers.

Or should we just close the border, line tanks and military police up along the frontier? I have a feeling neither country would want that. I know I don't.




And by the way, yes, you do have your problems in the states. Sure, good for you. But at the moment, your causing us problems to.



And I hate to preach like this (well, not really. It's more bittersweat, actually.) but to downplay Canadians crime problem is rather disgusting to me.

It's a very untrue stereotype that were a nation of polite, non-violent, law abiding people.

How I wish it were true, my friend.

[AoM]

Not every gun seller is an "opportunist." They ply their trade in selling guns just as anyone would selling fine china or cigarettes. They want to make a living same as you and me.

Unfortunately, I've never bought or owned a gun, so I can't talk from direct experience, but I know that when a gun is sold in the US (legally) it has be be registered and I think a background check is performed. A good-intentioned gun-seller does not want to be selling guns to gang members.

However, there are going to be opportunists, and I assume that if they don't perform the background checks and go through due process then they are guilty of a crime.

Therefore, in effect, you're asking us to arrest our criminals... well, we do.
It can be hard to catch them, but believe me, our boys in blue are working on it.

[Schme]

Fair enough. Fair enough.





But then, (and I do not mean to be an bitch here) if you cannot stop your boys from selling our murderers guns that our goverment does not want in our country, it's really very unfair to ask us to stop the drug smuglers from our country from putting drugs your goverment does not want in your country, well, in your country.




Also, you forget to consider the fact that, and it is widely know, that there are those people who sell guns, legally, to United States citzens, who in turn sell them to Canadian arms dealers (who are themselves gangsters to boot)


For example, someone who buys five handguns, legally, and then gets his friend to buy five handguns for him, and then his brother, et cetra et cetra, and then sells the on the street to people with obvious bad intentions, Americans and Canadians alike.

And many legal American arms dealers know what is going on, but all the same do not get rid of there immoral and harmfull costumers.

[rklenseth]

Then what they are dong is wrong and immoral. And should be stopped.

But what you fail to see which I'm pointing out is that you have to stop the problem at the core by standing against the gangsters or otherwise they'll continue to find ways to get guns and kill people that get in the way of their greed.

Since hand guns are regulated by the State Government in the US then your beef should be with each state. Not all states have the same laws. In New York you must get a permit from the state to own a gun which requires you to go through a safety program and background checks. If you were convicted of a felony in New York you cannot own a hand gun. Now if you passed both the program and background you can own one hand gun which requires the dealer to go through a background check on you. You also must be 21 years old in order to get a permit. For every other hand gun you want to own after the first you must once again get a permit from the state government for each one. Which requires the dealer and the state to do a background check each time by law. So if you own 20 hand guns you must have 20 permits for each handgun. This only applies to hand guns though. If you are 18, anyone can buy a rifle or smoothbore (shotguns and muzzleloaders) and anyone of any age can own and use either a rifle or smoothbore in New York. Stores can have there own regulations of who they sell rifles or smoothbores to like some will not sell them to anyone under the age of 21. There are other regulations for where and when you can shoot guns such as hunting laws or how close to residental areas you can shoot one. It has been interpreted by the Supreme Court that gun regulations should be regulated by the State Government and not by the Federal Government.

Some states do not require permits or even background checks. Your beef should be with them.

[Missy]

Alright. I'm going to put a few things in this post.

First, no need to quote my entire post, espicially after you were the second person.

Second, I don't care about your weed habit, or how you don't like airport security. I don't like it either. I'm with you there.

But were not talking about guys on planes. Were talking about guys in rusted out 1986 lowriders. (All, my, friends, have a lowrida! Duh duh duh duh duh duh! There low, ride, das, is a little higha! Duh duh duh duh duh duh............)

Anyhow. They drive across the border. Believe me. Were Canadians, not Columbians.

Also, I as I said, I don't care about your weed habit. Your goverment doesn't want our weed in your country, and does the best to help you out (even though the beneficial inflow of capital from the lufer sales)

And let me tell you, it is not fair that your cheap guns are killing our people. We don't get you guys killed.


Also, your thing about vigilante law with your home guns and such is an entirely other topic.

But let me tell you this. We don't care about your want to have the village militia. We don't want it, even if it helps.

I'll tell you something. It's not guys buying guns to defend themselves from burgalers. It's guys buying guns to fight over the market.

You guys throw all the cheap guns around you want, just don't have them up here killing me.

Shoot yourselves to death. Go. But we don't want to die.

I do quote your entire post because it's not worth the time for me like it is for some to go through the entire thing and pull out the pieces that are relevent.

Yes, airport security is important. It's the same thing. You're trying to prevent things from coming in and going out---and it's just not possible no matter what it's for, who it involves or why.


Let me also add that you're being very one sided. You act like we don't do what we can to keep guns from getting into the wrong hands. There are laws to prevent it but unfortunately it doesn't always help. You keep saying you don't care about our weed problem, but you're the one who put it up for discussion in the first place. You're trying to compare the two in your first post---Trying to explain you do everything to keep it out of our hands--but if thts true then explain the figure "90%" which you posted. You can't. Maybe your weed isn't killing our people, but it's just another proof that laws, what have you, isn't going to change the fact your canadian people will come down here to buy the guns or that our US people will go there to buy the weed. Telling one side to crack down further isn't going to change a thing! I don't deny you people try to do that, nor should you deny that we don't try to stop illegal selling of guns. Your argument just doesn't make sense.

[Missy]

Then what they are dong is wrong and immoral. And should be stopped.

But what you fail to see which I'm pointing out is that you have to stop the problem at the core by standing against the gangsters or otherwise they'll continue to find ways to get guns and kill people that get in the way of their greed.

Exactly.

[AoM]

@RKL... Really? What states don't require permits or background checks? That's a little weird... and dangerous... and something that needs to be changed in my opinion.

[Nick]

Hitler or Stalin never once used a gun

Really?

[Bran-Muffin]

With all of the assassinations going on to take power, they didnt use a gun?

Hitler never used a gun to kill himself? Hmm interesting. O_o









Yes, last part i am being a smart ass. First part was an actual question, I thought they had at least killed some of them with their own gun to take power.

[The Industriallist]

What the hell is going on in this thread?

For godamn sakes!

If your not going to say anything, don't post! C'mon people!

Schme, you are not a specially deputized god by virtue of starting the thread. Trying to stop people from posting stupid, irrelevant garbage is one thing...singlehandedly trying to control the entire discussion is assinine.

>Bran-Muffin
I'd be surprised if either Hitler or Stalin killed anyone with their own hands (or weapons) during their political careers. That makes bad potential press, and adds a totally needless risk to a rise to dictatorship.

And, finally, onto the topic...
While I know rather less about the mechanics of gang warfare than I think I do about conventional warfare...it seems to me that access to guns wouldn't really make it much worse. Basically, I think you'd have the exact same problems even if your gangs could somehow be totally stripped of firearms. Only with less spent brass lying around.

Also, guns aren't exactly difficult technology. With no outside source at all, it shouldn't take logn before the first home-made firearms started appearing. They would be ugly, and likely single-shot...but they would be guns.

Finally, the only way you could even stop more guns from becoming available would be to combine strong border patrols with an absolute lack of guns inside the country. At the least, no guns for the police...those can find their way into the wrong hands easily enough at need. For that matter, in a pinch I bet military firearms could be 'liberated' to serve in the alleys.

[Revanael]

CD WARNING:

Firstly, mind your language. Mostly you, schme.

Secondly, stop being aggressive or offensive to each other. And again, though not as much, that seems to be mostly schme, but it is still most of you.

Thirdly. Schme, don't try and control which way the conversation is going. It gets you hated, is pointless, and is inappropriate.

All of you. CALM IT.
(Revanael)

[Revanael]

My personal opinion:

People say that violence would be as bad if guns were illegal, or if they were completely removed.

The UK violent crime rate, relative to population, is many MANY times lower than that of the US. The UK has extremely strict gun control laws. Yes, of course people can, and do, get hold of guns illegally. And of course, some of them use them. However, it's much harder to get them than it would be legally, and you also obviously cannot carry them openly. The fact that someone can be arrested for carrying a firearm makes it a lot more difficult for anyone who has managed to acquire one from using it.
There's also the fact that if you do not HAVE a gun, you cannot grab it in a fit of rage and shoot someone. Which I believe is not uncommon in the US, either. And as schme pointed out in his first post, it takes more effort to kill somebody, usually, with an alternative weapon.

Now, I'm not saying that immediately banning guns in the US would solve all their problems. It would not. For a start, the guns are already out there, legally or illegally, and it would be difficult to recover even a large proportion. It would still be a start. Part of the problem, though, is the culture as well.

I do not know enough on the situation in Canada to comment specifically on it.


As for the original aim of this topic:
A possible suggestion. If the Canadian government wants the US to tighten their border controls - why not lessen yours? If they wish to control the border into their country, and you aren't doing it FOR them - then they'll have to step up security on their side. It's going into their country - and they're not controlling what's coming into yours - so make them do it.
Of course. That may not have the desired effect. But at least it means you could devote more resources to what's coming into your country rather than what's going out.

Smuggling, of course, will ALWAYS happen even in the strictest societies. The best you can do is minimise it.

[Yo_Yo]

Put me in my place? You wish.

As a fine and outstanding member of the NRA (I personally own 32 different guns) my opinion is going to be a bit lopsided.

When I say this, I mean it with all my heart Scheme. Stop being so simple minded. Do you really think that those guns you speak of only come from America? Honestly, when it comes to crime some people will go to any lengths to get what they want.

And as for gun banning all together, forget it. I could see making it even harder to get a gun (even though it seems to take for freaking ever to get one now ((legaly that is)) But you'll never strip most Americans of thier guns. Its in the constitution for peetes sake. I live in Ohio and we just passed a law saying we can carry concealed firearms for safety reasons. Guns play a pivitole role in every countrys past. You can't just up and one day say we can't have them anymore.

It sounds to me like you want to be like every country these days. Blame some random problem on the good Ol' US of A.

[Cookie]

It's simple. America's like a litle kid (and is considering how long it's been about compared to other countires) and it needs to be different. Guns are just one of the things america uses to sustain its false purpose, American dream and all that stuff. Hegenmoy if you know what that means, thats what this is, hegenomy. Karl Marx would back me up on that one.

Its the same with all there rubbish sports which no one else plays and there insistance to ignore the fact that the biggest sports in the worldweren't made by them.

America is searching for a history, which at the moment it doesn't have.