Society

[kroner]

In large cities life can become very anonymous...and that is not good.

That's exactly why I like them ... I prefer much more to be living in some big anonymous city, than in a small town where I always feel watched by people.

i agree with Jos. the anonymity is what i love most about the city.

[Pirog]

The Industriallist>

Er, if we're going to discuss racism, let's be precise, at least. If an opinion is based (in a logically valid manner) on 'hard facts', can it me racist? Does our definition of racism require it to be unsound?

If people talk about genetic racism there is no hard facts available.
For the last 40 years it has been proved that there are no genetic differences between different "races". I even find it strange that English speaking people haven't changed the word "race" when talking about humans, since it has been proved that humans doesn't consist of races. In cultural studies we use "ethniticity" instead for example.

Most racist people nowdays instead point at cultural differences to justify their unfair and narrowminded fear of foreigners...but even that is based on a totally false myth, the idea of culture as a stable factor.
What is American culture? What is French culture? A lot of the things we take for granted and see as part of our cultures are things that has nothing to do with our national cultures from the beginning. (In fact, the nations in themselves are new if you think about human history)
Culture always progresses and gets inspired with meetings with other cultures. If it wasn't for the exchange of cultural expressions between people our societies would have gotten nowhere.

[The Hunter]

Ah. It's about racism now, hehe.

Well, it's all about prejudice. Racism is easy because thoes "other cultures" are easy recognisable due to their skin colour and/or accent.

Like I said befere, my racism iseb based on experiences and facts. The facts are that 50% of the prisons is populated by a minority that makes up only 9 percent of our countries population. Experiences started when I was in my teens when I lived in germany when there weerre some fights between dutch/german groups and turks. (Over a girl, poor thing).
Now I live in a neigbourhood where the population of foreigners is about 60 percent. It used to be a nice neigbourhood and the example of "integration" for our dutch politicians. Alas, now the percentage of foreign people is steadily increasing and the neigbourhood suffers from it. House maintenace is neglected, large grou0ps of foreigners standing on the street, harrassing "white" ppl. A large wave of crime, mugging and car break-ins has swept through our streets, we actually saw them twice, both times maroccans. My GF has been mugged by, again, maroccans. Old muslim men walking in their dresses have actually offended my GF by calling her "Dutch whore" and they dont even know her! she's not even wearing miniskirts or other "provoking" clothing.
Alcohol is not being sold here anymore since all shops who did were harassed by breaking in, bricks through windows, etc. And thats not even all. As my GF has a shop in this neighbourhood too, she knows whats going on. Even the police admitted the problems are 99% due to the muslim foreigners.

ow you tell me. Am I a xenophobe? Is this just narrowmindedness on my side? Or should we finally accept whats happening and act on it?

Well, call me a racist, because I am. I judge groups of people on their race and ethnicity.

For the last 40 years it has been proved that there are no genetic differences between different "races".

Well, hardly anyway. Since even chimps are 98% simular to human genes. So yeah, call it Culturism.

[SekoETC]

In that case I'm a rasist too.. I think it's only natural to be suspicious towards everything different. I don't like muslims, especially turks. I don't mind going to a kebab joint but I could never date a Turkish guy. I see too much of them in the Internet, they easily fall in love with exotic northern girls whom they have never met, or at least act that way, but if you try to cool them down they just explode and start calling you a whore. And the ones that say they only want to be friends are annoying and whiney. They may offer you some sympathy but that's all.

I hate the old mannish thinking though I'm more chauvinistic than most girls. I met this drunkard at the bus station, he started chatting with me and I thought it would only make him pissed off if I ignored him, so I started chatting back. He told me about a man who had shot his two toddler sons because their mother had moved out to live in a block with them, leaving the man alone on his farm. He said this made his blood boil. I thought I understood him, of course everybody would be mad for a terrible case of unjustified violence like that. But no, he was angry to the wife, who had left in the middle of the harvest season when she was most needed in the house. I said him my honest opinion, you cannot own another person, nevermind the gender. He told me to repeat it so that he can record it "in here" *pointed his head*. He said he totally disagreed with me. I decided it was better to move to another place. I doubt that the woman had left just for fun, if the man discussed was cold-hearted enough to shoot his two sons and then tell his wife that they are even then, he most likely had been harming her before, with fists or spiritually. And what ever the woman had done to provoke him, the boys did not deserve to die. It sickens me that things like that happen in my country. Civilization, where are you?

[Antichrist_Online]

Civilisation is everywhere. That was a Civilised response, like attacking a country to make them think the same as you. Civalisation is barbarism practiced by tribal leaders.
Barbarians had an honour system, the stole from the rich because the poor did't have anything worth stealing. They left the people somethings so they could raid the town again.
Tribal governments taxed the weak to make the powerful an easier life. They had simple values for insiders and outsiders were lesser beings and had to be destroyed completly by burning away the village.
Civilisation takes everything from the poor in the name of development, extingushing other countries in the name of honour, taking lots to give little, then saying "Ah but we gave you all this money".

In case anyone wonders I don't condone the act, I put it in the same bracket as the rest of civilisation, Evil persued in the name of Good. I would rather have a benevolent system which is the opposite of civilisation. (Ps. I also don't like "civilised thoughts" as they take us away from the animals that we are and the nature we are destroying and put us in a sterile clean bubble. [PPS: My vices are being a goth, furry{spiritual (animal spirit guide) and physical}, a love of weapons, combat and bdsm.])

[Pirog]

*sighs* I'm disappointed. I thought you people were intelligent enough to not base serious decisions like that on your own personal experiences of individuals and facts where you obviously don't understand the underlaying facts.

The facts are that 50% of the prisons is populated by a minority that makes up only 9 percent of our countries population...

Have you ever questioned why the situation is like that?
The reasons for immigrants ending up in jail are many:

*Judges with similar opinions to you sentence foreigners harder. (This is a proven fact)

*People with similar opinions to you don't want to employ foreigners, making their situation incredibly hard. They are both poor and robbed of their only chance to be intergrated into society...not to mention the anger they must feel about constantly being discriminated by people who are to uneducated or lazy to understand why you shouldn't dismiss entire groups of people by their individual mistakes.

*Very often these people have hard backgrounds. Wars where they might have seen their parents or relatives die, threats from the regime, torture etc. leave them in a very unstable psychological condition. It is a proven fact that almost all violent criminals have such backgrounds.

*The way foreigners are always portraited negative in western media, and by the populations of the western countries, make them feel that they no longer have a trust to uphold. If they are seen as criminals by people like you they might as well behave like criminals.

*The different cultural backgrounds of immigrants can of course be very confusing and sometimes frustrating. The old men calling your girlfriend are of course being rude, but they are acting from their own beliefs and upbringings...and it is not worse than when you walk the street and think "fucking criminal" about immigrants you find looking shady.

I could go on with more of these examples. From my perspective racists like you are as much to blame as the actual criminal foreigners for the problems the western societies have with intergrating their immigrants, because you deny them their chance of being a part of you.

The problem most racists have are that they focus too much on the appearance of foreigners. When you see a "native" acting as a jerk he is just a jerk...but when an immigrant act like a jerk he is suddenly a foreign jerk.
I'm sure that if you would look at the situation with open eyes and a clear mind you would find that "natives" are acting as badly as foreigners...you just don't put all the "natives" in a single group.

Well, hardly anyway. Since even chimps are 98% simular to human genes.

Yes, but the genetic differences between different "races" are not even measurable statistically. There can be larger variations between two Europeans than between a European and an African, for example.

[Pirog]

SekoETC>

There are plenty of Finnish (and Swedish for that matter) men who beat their women, think that they own them and take out their eventual frustration on their innocent kids.

You people obviously can't have any foreign people as friends, because the way you lack to see things from their perspective is shocking!

I don't like muslims, especially turks. I don't mind going to a kebab joint but I could never date a Turkish guy. I see too much of them in the Internet, they easily fall in love with exotic northern girls whom they have never met, or at least act that way, but if you try to cool them down they just explode and start calling you a whore. And the ones that say they only want to be friends are annoying and whiney. They may offer you some sympathy but that's all.

The same goes for Swedish (and other Western) men.
I have a friend that comes from Chile. She is member of a community with profiles, and has posted some pictures of herself on her profile.
She is constantly harassed by white men asking her very bluntly about having sex (it's really disgusting to see how people can behave) and when she politely say that she is not interested they often respond by calling her "whore" or "nigger" (even if she is a fair skinned latina...).

You people need to open your eyes! The world is bigger than what you see from your own eyes. Get to know some foreigners and you will see that they are just as nice as everyone else. And the fact that they have new influences and often very interesting stories to tell about their backgrounds makes it educational just to hang out with them.

I'm sorry if I come off strong at times, but racism is one of the few things I have no tolerance for at all. If you only knew how bad it feels for immigrants to constantly be reminded that they don't fit in and that they are different...it's as bad as bullying the outsiders at school or harassing handicapped people.

[Pirog]

Civilisation is everywhere. That was a Civilised response, like attacking a country to make them think the same as you. Civalisation is barbarism practiced by tribal leaders.

Regarding barbarians it should be taken into consideration that the true meaning of the word "barbarian" is nothing more than "foreigner", a person not speaking the same language as you.

The way the word have changed focus says quite a lot about the narrowmindedness westerners have grown to have.

[The Hunter]

I do not agree at all. Foreigners are guests and will have to behave. I was taught that when in another country, I am an embassador of my country. Simple.
The netherlands have welcomed foreigners with open arms, they have gotten a lot of opportunities here. Jobs, and safety. Really, jobs are not hard to come by if you want to settle for something simple. Anyone who really wants to work will find one. Besides that, our society (Politicians) has given them advantages we never had. How many times have i not read in ads "female or non-natives have primacy".
As for their "violent" backgrounds making them criminals: A native criminal is bad enough. I don't want any foreign criminals as well. We give them safety, shelter and the needs to live. Besides, the ppl I'm talking about are not even refugees, they're 3rd generation immigrants. And still they have barely adapted to out culture and values!
And get to know them? I've known quite a few. They only proved my "prejudice" to be right.
It's simple. I live in a neighbourhood dominated by foreigners. If this is the future of my country, I'll emigrate. Because my experience of foreigners is, here it comes, that thety're backward criminal unwaqnted trash. Period. Ofcourse someone who does not live among them or hasn't been around them enough wmight not agree.

"Racist's" are often shunned by others. Yet, do we not have the right of an opinion of our own? Are we to be publicly executed for our opinion? Does my opinion automatically mean I'm narrowminded and stupid? Would be hypocryte right?
I might even be right. But who's to judge?

[The Industriallist]

...I hate the way I keep putting myself on what I consider the wrong side of this, but I can't help it...

*Very often these people have hard backgrounds. Wars where they might have seen their parents or relatives die, threats from the regime, torture etc. leave them in a very unstable psychological condition. It is a proven fact that almost all violent criminals have such backgrounds.

All the focus on 'background is overrated. I grant that that is a more likely explanation then bad behavior deriving from skin color...but it's often used as an excuse. I don't care what someone has been through, crime is still crime.

*The different cultural backgrounds of immigrants can of course be very confusing and sometimes frustrating. The old men calling your girlfriend are of course being rude, but they are acting from their own beliefs and upbringings...and it is not worse than when you walk the street and think "fucking criminal" about immigrants you find looking shady.

You can think anything you want about me. I won't take offense, or even ever know. But if you say something, I can know and care.

*Judges with similar opinions to you sentence foreigners harder. (This is a proven fact)

*People with similar opinions to you don't want to employ foreigners, making their situation incredibly hard. They are both poor and robbed of their only chance to be intergrated into society...not to mention the anger they must feel about constantly being discriminated by people who are to uneducated or lazy to understand why you shouldn't dismiss entire groups of people by their individual mistakes.

These are both valid. No argument from me. It's critical to remember that the filtration or lack of filtration of statistics can be distorting. The 'minority' may be 9% of the total population, but what percent of the population below some income level are they, say?
Statistics are almost certainly the best way of supporting any position, valid or not.

It is rather frightening what conclusions you draw, though. Would either of you be willing to state what aspect identifies one of these suspicios persons to you?

And don't ever, ever forget how much your own culture sucks. Really. You're welcome to judge other cultures for their defective attitudes as far as I'm concerned, but don't forget to judge cultures closer to home, if you can.

Just because I can't leve some sentences alone:

Get to know some foreigners and you will see that they are just as nice as everyone else.

Or as nasty...see above.

And the fact that they have new influences and often very interesting stories to tell about their backgrounds makes it educational just to hang out with them.

I have to say, I don't particularly want to hear about people's backgrounds or influences. No matter where they come from. I might make exception for extraterrestrials, but if you're an earthling, it had better be one good story. That's just me, though.

Regarding barbarians it should be taken into consideration that the true meaning of the word "barbarian" is nothing more than "foreigner", a person not speaking the same language as you.

The way the word have changed focus says quite a lot about the narrowmindedness westerners have grown to have.

No, that may be what it means (I think it is), but I think it always carried the conotation it does today. I'm sure the ancient Greeks looked down on the 'barbarians' then. Now, the original meaning has been subsumed by the conotation.

[Pirog]

I do not agree at all. Foreigners are guests and will have to behave.

Further down you say that you mainly have problems with 3rd generation immigrants....and they are still to think of themselves as guests?
You must be kidding!
If you are a citizen of a country you shouldn't have to think of yourself as a guest just because you look different. Opinions like that are just what makes some immigrants and foreign citizens think "why bother? I can just behave like a jerk, since they see me like one anyway..."

The netherlands have welcomed foreigners with open arms...

By who? Not you to make an example. You judged them even before they crossed the border.

Really, jobs are not hard to come by if you want to settle for something simple. Anyone who really wants to work will find one.

I don't know about the situation in Holland, but I don't believe you.
The same arguments are used by racists in Sweden. (Who are ironically often unemployed themselves, claiming that the foreigners are taking all of their jobs..)

Besides that, our society (Politicians) has given them advantages we never had. How many times have i not read in ads "female or non-natives have primacy".

Such measures are made because the politicians are trying to even out the discrimination on the market....THINK!

As for their "violent" backgrounds making them criminals: A native criminal is bad enough. I don't want any foreign criminals as well. We give them safety, shelter and the needs to live.

How do you want it? Do you want to give them safety, shelter and needs to live or don't you want anything to do with them?
I bet you are the type of guy who never gives money to homeless people or things like that either...they have themselves to blame too, right?

Besides, the ppl I'm talking about are not even refugees, they're 3rd generation immigrants. And still they have barely adapted to out culture and values!

But have you ever thought about people like you being the reason that they don't want be a part of your society?
If I moved to a different country where someone would call me "backward criminal trash" just because another Swedish immigrant had called his girlfriend a whore I wouldn't feel very welcome or motivated to join that society...
(And I would be very careful about calling people "backward" if I was you...because your ignorance really shines through in this discussion.)

It's simple. I live in a neighbourhood dominated by foreigners. If this is the future of my country, I'll emigrate.

That's rich. Perhaps you can move to a country that doesn't accept immigrants.

Ofcourse someone who does not live among them or hasn't been around them enough wmight not agree.

Is that a try to make it seem that I haven't been around them?
Because if it is you are very wrong...and contrary to you I have made the effort to get to know them before making unfair judgements about their whole population.

Out of the 4 dutch people I have ever met in person one stole a sweater from the party we was at. Does that mean that 25 % of the Dutch people are nothing more than petty criminals?
Put statistics on that, from how much the Dutch people steal every day, (every fourth Dutch person steals something every third day) and the Dutch suddenly seem like the most criminal people in the world.

"Racist's" are often shunned by others. Yet, do we not have the right of an opinion of our own?

You have the right to it, but other people don't have to accept it.
What is the point you are trying to make?

Are we to be publicly executed for our opinion?

No. I have never heard of that happening either. Being a criminal or calling your girlfriend a whore doesn't give cause to execution either...

Does my opinion automatically mean I'm narrowminded and stupid?

Frankly, yes. Racism is based on a view of the world narrowed down by either stupidity, lack of education or pure lazyness.
Talking about a huge group of people including nationalities from all over the world and with an endless amount of unique personalities as "backward criminal unwanted trash" IS stupid. Incredibly stupid.

If you combine it with the desire to leave your country and be an immigrant yourself to escape foreigners it is suddenly so stupid it is almost funny.

Would be hypocryte right?

No...what about it would be hypocritical?
Not tolerating your unfair behavior against immigrants because I want people to be more tolerant generally? That hasn't anything to do with hypocricy.

[The Hunter]

Q: What kind of neighbourhood do you live in? What are your experiences with foreigners? Maybe compare your situation with mine. Then judge. Don't preduce too, being hypocryte and judge "racists" as narrowminded, stupid etc. And don't think of those with simular views of foreigners to unemployed, uneducated losers. Those are the ones needing a scapegoat.

But then, you being a swede I hardly think you have the same problems as our country, since yours doesnt even let them in.

[Pirog]

All the focus on 'background is overrated. I grant that that is a more likely explanation then bad behavior deriving from skin color...but it's often used as an excuse. I don't care what someone has been through, crime is still crime.

I'm not saying that it is allright to commit crimes because you have had a hard background, lack social security or anything of that kind...you are ALWAYS responsible for your own actions.
But factors like this does have a meaning when it comes to looking at it in a large picture. If you look at criminals in general almost none of them come from stable family situations or happy backgrounds...surely you can't say that is just a coincidence?

You can think anything you want about me. I won't take offense, or even ever know. But if you say something, I can know and care.

This is the same as above. I'm not saying it's ok just because they have a different perspective...

It is rather frightening what conclusions you draw, though. Would either of you be willing to state what aspect identifies one of these suspicios persons to you?

I don't understand what you mean about this...please explain what kind of frightening conclusion I have drawn and I will try to explain.

Statistics are almost certainly the best way of supporting any position, valid or not.

I agree. You can prove just about anything with statistics. (As I tried to point out in my last reply to Hunter...)

And don't ever, ever forget how much your own culture sucks. Really. You're welcome to judge other cultures for their defective attitudes as far as I'm concerned, but don't forget to judge cultures closer to home, if you can.

When have I trash talked other cultures and tried to make my own seem better? If I did it was purely unintentional.
(If this is about my point about the old men calling her a whore I didn't try to make a point that foreigners usually share those values.)

I have to say, I don't particularly want to hear about people's backgrounds or influences. No matter where they come from. I might make exception for extraterrestrials, but if you're an earthling, it had better be one good story. That's just me, though.

Well, that is just you. Personally I can learn more about the world from discussing with someone who have had a totally different background and perspective on life...

No, that may be what it means (I think it is), but I think it always carried the conotation it does today.

It didn't. I can try to post a link about this if you like (and I can find one)

[Pirog]

Hunter>

Since I took the time to answer what you wrote I think you should show me the same courtsey.

What kind of neighbourhood do you live in?

I live in the central parts of Gothenburg. Although not a neighbourhood with noticebly high amount of foreigners it doesn't stop me from having a lot of contact and communication with foreigners.

Maybe compare your situation with mine. Then judge.

What is your situation then? That you have to be around them? I wouldn't find that hard in any way, since I usually doesn't even reflect about people being foreign or not when I talk to them.

Don't preduce too, being hypocryte and judge "racists" as narrowminded, stupid etc. And don't think of those with simular views of foreigners to unemployed, uneducated losers.

But racism is stupid, and they are very often uneducated losers.
I have never heard an intelligent stand for racism...not in my personal life, not in politics, not on the internet...nowhere.
Racism is based on buying a concept of the world that is based on facts that is either manipulated to make foreigners look bad or gathered by someone who can't put the facts in a context.

But then, you being a swede I hardly think you have the same problems as our country, since yours doesnt even let them in.

I just find that statement odd...do you have anything else than your own imagination as base for that statement?

About 20 % of the Swedish population have foreign background.

[Junesun]

I definitely agree with you, Pirog.

Spending some weeks in China was a crash course for me in two extrems: 1) how it feels to be different in a more or less homogenous country and 2) how it feels to be part of a very diverse multi-cultural community.

My situation there was quite interesting: I did a Chinese-for-foreigners course at an otherwise closed university, so the people within 1km of my dormitory came from all over the world and there were very few Chinese.
However, as soon as you step out of the university grounds, without even leaving the metropole Beijing, you are a lone foreigner in a sea of Chinese people, and it's a change in atmosphere that leaves you stunned for a while. I have no bad experiences with the Chinese people. No threats, no insults, nothing, even though my clothes were probably considered too avant-garde in a country where it is questionable whether you should even show your shoulders, let alone your legs. If anything, Chinese people smile at you more often than Germans would and are also quicker to call you "friend". Despite that, just by the looks of people, you always feel branded as a foreigner. Now, I'm sure that if you are ostensibly a foreigner in Germany, it feels worse.

As for the international community on the campus, I had more fun there than in any other community I experienced before. Since we were all as different as could be, and no country was represented with more than 2 pupils in my class, there was no room for xenophobia, you either had to accept the others and work with them or be an outcast yourself. So we worked together, partied together, taught each other about our respective cultures... and not just in the classroom. If you took a walk around the parks on the campus in the evening or in the early morning, you could see many different people gathering there at the ponds, talking, playing the guitar, singing, doing Tai Chi... I often joined one of the music-making groups. It consisted of a Chinese guy playing the guitar, an Indian girl playing the flute, a Pakistani and a Congolese guy occasionally playing the guitar and several guys and girls from France, Korea, Nigeria and USA singing or listening. I learned more about those countries and their music than in 13 years at school.

Having the choice between living as a foreigner in a homogenous community or in a diverse, multicultural one, I'd definitely go for the latter. But also if I had the option to be part of that homogenous community, I'd still not choose to live there, because there is just no equivalent for the easy acceptance and opportunities of learning that a diverse community has to offer. Besides, who knows whether you will always be considered part of a homogenous community, even if you appear to fit there at first? Who knows whether that community will not invent new rules for "fitting in", as was done in Hitler Germany: all of a sudden, people who had lived in Germany since the Middle Ages or even longer were considered foreigners and expelled or murdered... who tells you that you and your friends won't be identified as an undesirable minority on some issue, be it invented?

Just my two cents.

Judith