Religion

N-Aldwitch · Postby **N-Aldwitch** » Tue May 23, 2006 10:05 am

Religion is a touchy topic.

It's like a subway/freeway directly to someone's ego.

You offend their religion, you offend them directly.

(following added on)

So just be careful with what you guys say and pick your words correctly, I'd hate to see this very hot, tentative discussion turn into a flame war- as to me it looks like it treads the line between offensive and discussion-based veerrryyy closely.

Stan · Postby **Stan** » Tue May 23, 2006 12:05 pm

Dee wrote:Can someone calrify this for me, please?

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Is he the son of God?

Or do you think of him as just a prophet?

Jesus is God made man. Jesus is also the Son of the Father. Jesus was there when the world was created and came to earth as a man in order to establish a personal relationship between God and man. He allowed Himself to be captured and crucified as the perfect sacrifice in place of us for the penalty for human sin.

In the story about Abraham and Isaac God asks Abraham to take his son to the top of a mountain to sacrifice his son. When he gets there Isaac realizes there is to be a sacrifice and asks his father, "where is the lamb?" Abraham answered,"God himself with provide the lamb for the burnt offering, my son." God provided the sacrifice in the form of a ram caught in the thorns just as Abraham trusted he would do. This was prophetic, as Jesus was then provided as a perfect sacrifice once and for all as a payment for sin.

Jesus' sacrifice is like a credit card without a limit in this sense...we all have fallen short of God's perfectness. There's a debt due on falling short. However, we can say, "charge it to my Father's account" and we'll never have to pay the debt. But, if we don't charge it to our Father's account we'll have to pay the debt ourselves.

Nalaris · Postby **Nalaris** » Tue May 23, 2006 12:10 pm

If you offend my religion, I don't care that much. I probably don't care as much as I should. I'm just bored.

Jesus cannot be God and be the Son of God at the same time. God has a body, which is seen several times (Moses sees his back), which means he can't be in two places at once without breaking his own laws of physics which, though he could, he won't because he's God and if he's imperfect than the whole universe is moot.

God cannot stand on his own right hand(without looking really awkward), yet Christ stands on the right hand of God.

Christ and God are two seperate beings. If you take both the Old and New Testament as true then you take this as true or defy the obvious within them. If you choose to defy the obvious, you're not the first one. People have torn out pages of the Bible in order to remove evidence of the LDS Church's truth.

Stan · Postby **Stan** » Tue May 23, 2006 12:13 pm

Nalaris wrote:Christ and God are two seperate beings. If you take both the Old and New Testament as true then you take this as true or defy the obvious within them. If you choose to defy the obvious, you're not the first one. People have torn out pages of the Bible in order to remove evidence of the LDS Church's truth.

Not sure about Mormons, but all Christian doctrine states that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are God in different manifestations that exist together. It's called the Holy Trinity.

Pirate Lass · Postby **Pirate Lass** » Tue May 23, 2006 12:43 pm

Nalaris wrote:...he won't because he's God and if he's imperfect than the whole universe is moot.

I'm suddenly getting a flashback from the movie "Dogma", too funny.

Nalaris wrote:God cannot stand on his own right hand(without looking really awkward), yet Christ stands on the right hand of God.

I hope you were being sarcastic here and not literal.....

*goes back to lurking*

Dee · Postby **Dee** » Tue May 23, 2006 3:04 pm

I was asking not because I didn't know, but because I wanted to know what you know.

Jeses is not God. God created Jesus. Jesus was not there from the beginning of the world's creation.

God created Adam right after He created the universe.

Moses did not see God, nor did Muhammed. Moses spoke to God when he was on the mountain, that's why it's called Jabal Moussa in Arabic, I don't know what you people call it.

Abraham saw in his dream that he was sacrificing his son by cutting his throat, and he knew that it was a message from God, and when he actually began cutting his son's throat, God replaced him with a lamb. That's one of the feasts we celebrate (Eid Al-Adha).

Valsum · Postby **Valsum** » Tue May 23, 2006 4:38 pm

Yeah as you can see, many different points of view about it

My personal relationship with Jesus is such, that theologically and also by experience I know Jesus' power is huge, divine, after his Ascension. That can only be because He is God in one of the trinitarian people, for me.

Stan · Postby **Stan** » Tue May 23, 2006 4:51 pm

Valsum wrote:My personal relationship with Jesus is such, that theologically and also by experience I know Jesus' power is huge, divine, after his Ascension. That can only be because He is God in one of the trinitarian people, for me.

I agree 100%.

As far as Jesus being God or not...that's the core of Christian belief. The Genesis example of Elohim being plural is but one of the indicators that God has a characteristic of multiplicity.

Jesus also tells John in the beginning of Revelation that, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

At the end of Revelation he says it again when he says, "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

formerly known as hf · Postby **formerly known as hf** » Tue May 23, 2006 5:37 pm

Stan wrote:Jesus also tells John in the beginning of Revelation that, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

You know, that quote has always made me wonder. 'Alpha and the Omega' is a modern sentence, it wouldn't have made much sense to say that in English more than 150 years ago. It makes me wonder what the original sentence was, and how it used to be translated. (The 'Begining and the End' or something similar I would guess, considering similar statements)

Then again, he also said 'But I'm not the Messiah'
Wait
no
sorry
wrong story.

SekoETC · Postby **SekoETC** » Tue May 23, 2006 8:30 pm

The New Testament was written in Greek, therefor it's likely that the people knew their alphabet and the message of God takes form in words that fit their vocabulary. The Revelation was seen and experienced, and maybe even the parts that were spoken by angels were in fact unshaped thoughts that were interpreted by the person experiencing this vision. I don't remember where it was but there was a mention of a woman sitting inside a square box used to measure grain. From today's perspective, that sounds very much like a TV, a person in a box. And the locusts often make me think of helicopters with their noisy wings. But how the "face of a human and hair like woman's hair" fits the picture.

Addition, Dee, how can your people acknowledge Jesus as a prophet, yet deny him being the son of God? Since he said several times he's the Messiah, and how can you believe his teachings partially but not this? Since lying would make him a false prophet. You said that your people don't believe he's dead. Do you mean that you believe in his rising from the death or that he never died in the first place?

Valsum · Postby **Valsum** » Tue May 23, 2006 9:57 pm

SekoETC wrote:Since he said several times he's the Messiah

Amazingly, he never said it that clear. It has its theological reasons too...

Mykey · Postby **Mykey** » Tue May 23, 2006 10:23 pm

I consider, what is it very interesting theme. I suggest you it to discuss here or in PM.

Mykey · Postby **Mykey** » Tue May 23, 2006 10:27 pm

You commit an error. I can defend the position. Write to me in PM.

Stan · Postby **Stan** » Tue May 23, 2006 10:37 pm

Valsum wrote:
SekoETC wrote:Since he said several times he's the Messiah

Amazingly, he never said it that clear. It has its theological reasons too...

That's right, but he did infer it. In my previous post He says he is coming soon and is bringing reward.

He also says in John 13:13, "You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord' and rightly so, for that is what I am."

And in John 4:25-26 The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."

Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

I don't know the answer to your question Cooper. That would be interesting to know, though. I'll do some digging on it.

Dee · Postby **Dee** » Wed May 24, 2006 7:58 am

SekoETC wrote:Addition, Dee, how can your people acknowledge Jesus as a prophet, yet deny him being the son of God? Since he said several times he's the Messiah, and how can you believe his teachings partially but not this? Since lying would make him a false prophet. You said that your people don't believe he's dead. Do you mean that you believe in his rising from the death or that he never died in the first place?

Seko, him being a prophet does not mean he is the son of God. Muhammed was a prophet, but he's not the son of God.

Messiah does not mean God, now I don't know what you meant by the question, and he definitley is not lying. Messiah is Jesus, that's the Arabic word for Christian.

We believe that he never died, he was never killed. God protected him from death and made someone else who looked a lot like him be killed on that cross. God made Jesus live up there with him, and he will come back to us near the end of the world. He will kill man who is claiming to be God, and all of the true muslims will fight him. But that's another long story. I can explain if you're interested, though.

Religion

Do you agree?

:

:

Who is online