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Do you agree?

Poll ended at Sat Apr 22, 2006 9:23 pm

Disagree with 1, 2 & 3
15
48%
Disagree with 2 & 3
0
No votes
Disagree with 3
2
6%
I don't wanna take sides
6
19%
Agree with all
8
26%
 
Total votes: 31
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Valsum
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Postby Valsum » Sun May 21, 2006 8:44 am

:lol:

Since you don't know anything about the doctrine and why we claim certain things that you point as "mind manipulation", I'll try to clarify some things.

1. Jesus died for our sins because God's people, Israel, was living away from God once more. His figure and his salvation had been announced by the prophets for centuries, but specially by the "Servant of Yahweh" chants of Isaiah. The ruling chaste in Israel, the jewish priests, and the people didn't understand anything, because it only could be understood afterwards, under the "Light of Christ", as the apostles and the disciplines did later. After His death and Resurrection, we are saved, because we know that if we believe in Christ, we know we'll participiate in His Resurrection.

2. For jewish, the fact that God came to Earth to be humilliated and killed has always, and still is, a scandal. A tremendous one. It is, actually, the reason why they killed him, quite a paradox isn't it? Therefore, it's very difficult for the jewish people to convert, although the apostles as St. Paul and St. Peter tell us in their letters had a remarkable success there. For the rest of cultures, however, it can be more easy to understand it, since we can look at History of Salvation from outside, and with a full perspective. All the Old Testament is announcing, is a preparation of the coming of Jesuschrist, by Whom God would save the world and stablish the New and Eternal alliance.

It's not brainwashing, it's a matter of faith but with so many proofs that once you understand them (for example, how come 4 people wrote the Gospel, in different places and time, and the same story?) you can't do but believe.

The matter if you adhere to the Catholic, Orthodox, or a Protestant Church is different, though.
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Postby formerly known as hf » Sun May 21, 2006 11:44 am

Valsum wrote:It's not brainwashing, it's a matter of faith but with so many proofs that once you understand them (for example, how come 4 people wrote the Gospel, in different places and time, and the same story?) you can't do but believe.
?
I understand the proofs of the bible, I still do not believe.

Nalaris wrote:Of course, none of this means anything to any non-Christian.
Exactly. Which is admitedly what winds me up. Havind a 'debate' with a religious person is always circular. And we've been on this merry-go round for weeks now...

Like west pointed out. If someone tries to dispute a holy text (Bible), those who argue against them go to that said Holy Book (the Bible) to refute them.

Telling me 'the Bible says this' means pretty much nothing to me. I'm not surprised, however, that no one seems to be able to look elsewhere than said book.

The only person who has actually tried to justify the use of the Bible in this way is Pie. And good on him. He shows an appreciation of why he believes the Bible that exteneds somewhat beyond blind faith. Admitedly, Pie's 'proof' doesn't convince me, but it's a heck of a lot more solid than the unjustified 'the Bible says this' blindness most people go in for.
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Postby Stan » Sun May 21, 2006 1:21 pm

Mykeyrools wrote: anyone read Genesis? ever seen the word Elohim? in hebrew its a plural word. Think about it...


Yeah, think about it. At the time it was written (by Moses some believe) there was no thought of plural God. It was only "I AM". So, isn't that interesting that Moses used a plural word? Hmmm....well let's see...why would he do that?

Well...since Jesus and the Holy Spirit are part of God they along with the Father (I AM) are plural. Amazing that people miss that. Genesis was written thousands of years before Christ, yet right there in the first few verses Jesus IS mentioned. In fact is says, "Then God said, "Let us make man in OUR image, in OUR likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea adn the birds of the air...." Genesis 1:24 (emphasis mine)

Thanks for pointing that out Mikey!

Also, I will use the Bible to discuss this topic because I believe the Bible has insight into human behavior that can then be witnessed first hand. The only way to validate some of the claims is to read what can be observed today and see if it is observable. If it is RELIABLE then we can begin to trust in what it says about the past as well. Scientifically, that's called interpolation. We can go into Bible claims and my observations some other time. But, I've already gone into some of them on this forum in the past.
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Postby Kreed » Sun May 21, 2006 3:43 pm

I believe the Lord of the Rings has insight into human behavior that can then be witnessed first hand.
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Postby Kreed » Sun May 21, 2006 3:53 pm

Here is a website with a comprehensive answer to the question:

http://www.400monkeys.com/God/
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Postby Dee » Sun May 21, 2006 4:28 pm

Joshuamonkey wrote:
Have you even read my post?

Of course I read your post. I wouldn't respond without reading the whole post. I was just clarifying with Allah. Allah is basically another name for God or Heavenly Father? Do Muslims believe in angels?


Allah is the arabic name for God. And yes, Muslims do believe in angels. Do you?
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Postby Valsum » Sun May 21, 2006 5:35 pm

I posted a brief article about the angels in my blog :)

But in response to HF, my faith as catholic isn't entirely based in the Scriptures, but also in the Tradition of the Church and its Magistery. My faith is completely bonded to the Church, which is the family of all the (catholic) christians and Christ's Wife. This said, and besides the proofs of the Bible I mentioned, my faith wouldn't be so strong if I had not experimented the love of God in my heart. If I had not heard Jesus' voice sometimes, in prayer! If I had not asked Him of things, to receive them later. Or if I had not witnessed very special things only possible under a religious perspective. And I thank God for that everyday.

Therefore, the Bible isn't everything, but it is also the Word of God! It's the legate of all the History of Salvation, the Revelation, the presence of God among the humans. So it is very, very important.
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Postby Joshuamonkey » Mon May 22, 2006 3:51 am

Allah is the arabic name for God. And yes, Muslims do believe in angels. Do you?

Yes, angels are a big part of Mormon religion.

anyone read Genesis? ever seen the word Elohim? in hebrew its a plural word. Think about it...

I read most of genesis twice... cuz I started reading the Bible two times. Getting get past Numbers...but I skipped to the New Testament, and now I have to read the last half of the Book of Mormon over.(Duty to God requirement)
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Postby Pie » Mon May 22, 2006 5:22 pm

Angels are a part of the cristian religion, but not really a big part.(there just used to battle the DEVIL!!!)

And H.F.... I just want to say, That other gods, they don't contrdict the bible at all. In fact, the bible sais"don't put any OTHER GODS before me" wich, in the context of the israly language(wich i have momontarily forgot the name of...) this either could mean"don't put any other woraldly disire before my, don't put any other adiction before me" Or it could mean that there actually are other gods.

Now, in the story of moses, the preasts of Rha could ALSO turn theyre staffs into snakes, but moseses snake ate theyre snake.

But there are alot of reasons to believ in cristianity rather than islam(Hypathetacly.. if they both were true...) Cristianity is ALOT easyer to win in. All you got to do is repent, and have a relationship with god.

In my religion, it says that you fell frome perfection, and thus you can't come into heaven. But by the grase of god, and a relationship with jesus, you can enter heaven.

All OTHER religions say that you fell frome perfection, and only through actions may you enter heaven.

So, cristianity is not only easyer to get in, it's also got a better reward i'd say. Instead of just a house in the heavans(with a few extra things.....), you get a kingdom in heaven, a relationship with jesus, and eternal frendship with lots of people. JUST THINK ABOUT IT!! I'LE BE ABLE TO ANNOY FAMOUS PEOPLE!!!
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Postby Valsum » Mon May 22, 2006 6:22 pm

lol pie, good post
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Postby Stan » Tue May 23, 2006 1:09 am

Pie, in the context of don't put any other gods before me, anything can be your god. That's a small "g".

Money can be your god if that's what you serve. It can also be sex, a career, etc.

Otherwise, brilliant post!
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Postby Nalaris » Tue May 23, 2006 2:02 am

Mykeyrools wrote:I`m sorry but this whole jesus dies for our sins thing is ludicrous,I mean let me put this in context,according to "christians" We killed "god" because we are tainted vile creatures but he loves us anyways and"gave" his life So we could what? get into heaven and have another shot at him?
its a bunch of crap its just a rewording of horus and gilgamesh and countless others " It`s thought control people" like it or not.
We are taught from the moment we are born by christian religions to be ashamed of ourselves...Why? so we do what were told...People are open to suggestion when they feel guilty,I actually applaud the catholic church for figuring out mind-manipulation long before the U.S.S.R or the U.S.A ever were conceived.Hitler actually admired the catholic church for the same reason.There was a jewish historian in the supposed time of christ I believe his name was Herodutus? I could be wrong there..but guess what Not a single mention of a jesus christ? maybe it was a conspiracy and if you claim that your just as whacko as i sound to you:) anyone read Genesis? ever seen the word Elohim? in hebrew its a plural word. Think about it...


Killed God? What the heck are you talking about?

We believe men shall be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgressions. One of the Thirteen Articles of Faith. Mormons believe that 1)Christ is not God. They think the same way. They are not one in body, only one in mind.
2)Men are judged for their sins, things they did, not anyone else's.

Anymore ridiculous and inane points you want to bring up?

And HF, I already told you, I have recieved personal revelation, personal knowledge, personal confirmation, that it's true. Believe it or not as you will, I know it.
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Postby Joshuamonkey » Tue May 23, 2006 3:33 am

Now, in the story of moses, the preasts of Rha could ALSO turn theyre staffs into snakes, but moseses(moses') snake ate theyre snake.

There are actually some snakes that can look totally like a stick and then turn back into looking like a snake. I find it unlikely that Moses was walking around with a snake as a staff though, which he used for just about anything you can think about.
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Postby Dee » Tue May 23, 2006 7:13 am

Can someone calrify this for me, please?

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Is he the son of God?

Or do you think of him as just a prophet?
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Postby Valsum » Tue May 23, 2006 9:43 am

I believe He is God, because being the Son of God, created by the Father before the beginning of time, He was sent to Earth in the Divine Plan of the Father and through the Holy Ghost to save humankind and to reveal the truth, to complete the History of Salvation.

That might sound a bit complicated :)
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