Religions

[RedQueen.exe]

(like Chris's example came from how Christians believe their savior died on a cross for everyone's sin (a concept only found in Christianity, from what I've studied))..

You need to study more. The Hindoo Sakia, Hesus of the Celtic Droids, Chrishna.... Actually there are many more occurances that pre-date christianity that have a god dying via crucifixion for the world's sins.

Exactly. This is why some atheists are fond of the saying that "teaching one religion indoctrinates, teaching many religions inoculates". When you see how much the various religions borrow ideas from each other and offshoot from each other, you realize --- this is exactly what you would expect of an idea that is an entirely man-made, cultural phenomenon.

[RedQueen.exe]

Maybe it sounds like I have a beef with religion --- well, I do. My brother was an atheist far before I became one. My father made him go through the entire process leading up to (Catholic) confirmation before letting him decide whether or not to go through with it. My parents hoped that it was some rebellious phase that he would just eventually grow out of. My brother, of course, did all of the preparation for confirmation as he was asked to before telling my father that he still would not go through with it.

My father tore himself apart agonizing over my brother's decision, feeling that he had failed his son. And why wouldn't he if he believes his own son will be denied heaven because he couldn't "convince" him? As far as I'm aware, no other difference of opinion burdens people with the thought that their family and loved ones will be tormented by an eternal sky-bully if they can't manage to make them believe the same as they do.

When I finally came around myself years later, I saw how it can create these needless distances between people in families. I still haven't told my family about my own "conversion", and luckily they haven't asked. I don't feel the need to depress my father even further over something so - inconsequential. I do as my brother does and quietly bow my head during mealtime prayers, but utter nothing. I'm not mad at the people who believe with good intent (I think most religious fall into this category) but I am upset with this useless idea that creates these kinds of rifts within families for no good reason.

[Cheshierekat]

I have been avoiding this thread, but I can't sleep, and it's down time right now...so I guess I'll poke my head in here and say hello. I currently have not been going to church, and have been struggling a little because of health issues, but I realized today that I need to focus on the fact that I have faith, and no matter what, I can get through it.

I'm not religious. I have faith. And I fully believe that there's a difference. I believe in God, even if I can't see him, I can totally see the things he does in my life and in the lives of everyone around me. It's kind of like the wind, you can't physically see the wind, but you can see the effect the wind has on the trees as it blows. Just like that, I can't see God, but I can see what he does in my life. Sometimes terrible stuff happens, but it's all part of it.

When bad stuff happens, you're given tools to get through it. It just depends on if you choose to use those tools or not. The tools can be people, a book, some internal light that suddenly comes on and helps you get through it, or whatever really it's just your choice if you pick up that tool and use it to get through the bad stuff. Who gives you those tools? Well, your higher power I guess, whatever you want to have faith in. For me, it's God.

(If I seem like I'm rambling, I'm sorry, I really dislike talking about this stuff because of the negativity that is often aimed at people who believe in a higher power. I never want it to seem like I'm pressing my beliefs on someone because that has happened to me before and it can be very uncomfortable)

[RedQueen.exe]

Well look at the bright side, at least you're not a member of one of the least trusted groups in America. I believe one survey showed that people trust us about as much as rapists.

I think you see a lot of the ridicule because while the pernicious effects of religion are decreasing, it is becoming safer and safer for people to criticize it. Religion's influence has declined enough so that it is generally safe for atheists to criticize religion encroaching into areas where it doesn't belong, but has not declined enough to keep it from encroaching in the first place.

Obviously, I cannot speak for every atheist, and many of the people criticizing religion are religious themselves - I was one in that category for a while, during my "transition" that eventually led me to my current stance. What may help you is to understand that the reason belief in god is attacked, is because people use the idea of god to justify, for example, denying gay people the same rights as straight people, to teach junk in science classrooms, and to intimidate children by letting schools endorse particular sects.

If good religious people don't like the idea of god being ridiculed, I would hope they see that their real issue should be with the people that are using this god as a sort of "human shield" for their bigotry or political crusades, and not the people that are attacking it to remove it as a foundation for said bigotry and political crusades. We (again, generally speaking) don't feel the need to destroy it as a source of comfort in people's lives - we just want people to stop using as an excuse for nastiness and/or ignorance.

[Cheshierekat]

If good religious people don't like the idea of god being ridiculed, I would hope they see that their real issue should be with the people that are using this god as a sort of "human shield" for their bigotry or political crusades, and not the people that are attacking it to remove it as a foundation for said bigotry and political crusades. We (again, generally speaking) don't feel the need to destroy it as a source of comfort in people's lives - we just want people to stop using as an excuse for nastiness and/or ignorance.

I completely agree with this. It's hard (for me) watching people pick what parts of the bible they want to follow just to justify their personal beliefs on an issue. And it's doubly sad that they get more attention than the other face of Christianity.

[Henkie]

I just stick with my old post lol, I've had my say, I despise almost all forms or organized religion.

Religion is fine. Implementing religion is where it always goes wrong...

Do it quietly, be satisfied with your own religion and don't bother others.

It's the only way to keep it on the good side.

[RedQueen.exe]

I completely agree with this. It's hard (for me) watching people pick what parts of the bible they want to follow just to justify their personal beliefs on an issue. And it's doubly sad that they get more attention than the other face of Christianity.

The worst of anything always gets the most attention. To some degree, that's a good thing in the sense that it draws attention to where the problems are - but it is bad in the sense that it gives an inaccurate representation of that group.

Atheists/agnostics/whatever whom are fighting religious intrusions just need to keep that in mind and not unintentionally make enemies with good, reasonable christians and other theists whom really ought to be our allies in ensuring religious freedoms for all groups.

[Chris]

So what do you guys think of Rick Santorum (a Republican Presidential candidate in the US) being against contraception? He believes (by way of Catholic doctrine) that contraception is wrong and "harmful to women" and "harmful to society."

[Snickie]

That might be going a bit overboard. I have no problem with people using contraceptives if they're going to do it anyway. In fact, if they're not married (in which they shouldn't be doing it at all, but that's another topic for another discussion for another day) then I think they definitely should use contraceptives. And it's fine if a young newlywed couple who aren't ready for kids yet but still want to go at it like rabbits. They can do that because of contraceptives.

Abortion, on the other hand. It's one thing to prevent a pregnancy. It's another to kill a baby regardless of whether you've borne it already because of a "mistake" in any stage of the process. I don't care how many weeks you do it at.

[RedQueen.exe]

I could say I think that's going too far, but I would hope that much is obvious. Whom does it harm? Whose business is it? Okay then, case closed.

The INTERESTING part about it is how out of touch catholic leaders and politicians are with mainstream catholics. Barring particularly the particularly devout, most mainstream catholics I have met have no issues with contraception. I think it just makes him look a bit kooky to most people and hopefully, dangerous, as it should.

Abortion, on the other hand. It's one thing to prevent a pregnancy. It's another to kill a baby regardless of whether you've borne it already because of a "mistake" in any stage of the process. I don't care how many weeks you do it at.

Given the high percentage of pregnancies that terminate naturally, shame on god for being the biggest abortionist in history.

I hate the abortion debate, as I don't think I've seen an objectively good argument on either side yet.

[Alladinsane]

There is no constitutional mandate for providing it or for making somebody else pay for it. Thats the -only- place that the battle should be fought. Of course there is no constitutional mandate for the whole healthcare thing either.

Its a tough issue and tempers go either way.


Birthcontrol is fine and should be used in cases of recreational sex... But when government comes to your house with guns and force to make you pay for someone elses? Its gotta end up in SCOTUS. Till then, we wait.

[Chris]

Santorum says Obama agenda not "based on Bible"

Republican presidential candidate Rick Santorum challenged President Barack Obama's Christian beliefs on Saturday, saying White House policies were motivated by a "different theology."

[....]

Obama's agenda is "not about you. It's not about your quality of life. It's not about your jobs. It's about some phony ideal. Some phony theology. Oh, not a theology based on the Bible. A different theology," Santorum told supporters of the conservative Tea Party movement at a Columbus hotel.

When asked about the statement at a news conference later, Santorum said, "If the president says he's a Christian, he's a Christian."

But Santorum did not back down from the assertion that Obama's values run against those of Christianity.

"He is imposing his values on the Christian church. He can categorize those values anyway he wants. I'm not going to," Santorum told reporters.

Santorum: Satan is Systematically Destroying America

This is not a political war at all. This is not a cultural war. This is a spiritual war. And the Father of Lies has his sights on what you would think the Father of Lies would have his sights on: a good, decent, powerful, influential country - the United States of America. If you were Satan, who would you attack in this day and age. There is no one else to go after other than the United States and that has been the case now for almost two hundred years, once America's preeminence was sown by our great Founding Fathers.

Put 2 and 2 together. Obama is a tool of Satan! Santorum may never connect the dots in a speech, but I bet he trusts his audience to know and agree.

[RedQueen.exe]

There is no constitutional mandate for providing it or for making somebody else pay for it. Thats the -only- place that the battle should be fought. Of course there is no constitutional mandate for the whole healthcare thing either.

Its a tough issue and tempers go either way.

Birthcontrol is fine and should be used in cases of recreational sex... But when government comes to your house with guns and force to make you pay for someone elses? Its gotta end up in SCOTUS. Till then, we wait.

I don't feel I know enough at the moment to speak to the constitutional issues, but I feel that it is just good sense. It's a lot cheaper to pay for someone's birth control than it is to pay the welfare costs and healthcare for their unwanted children. Providing contraception should cut down on the number of abortions, and cut down on crime due to fewer people being borne into houses that aren't ready to raise them - and possibly even hold a resentful attitude toward them.

Given how cheap it is compared to the effects of not providing it, I can't imagine why anyone would NOT want to do it.

Then again, I'm one of those weirdos that actually doesn't mind paying their taxes.

[Chris]

Santorum Excommunicates 45 Million Christians: Mainline Protestants Are ‘Gone From The World Of Christianity’

In a 2008 speech at Ave Maria University, Rick Santorum, a devout Catholic, warned about the dangers of “the NBA” and “rock concerts,” but also said that while Protestants founded America, mainline Protestantism is in such “shambles” that “it is gone from the world of Christianity as I see it”:

We all know that this country was founded on a Judeo-Christian ethic but the Judeo-Christian ethic was a Protestant Judeo-Christian ethic, sure the Catholics had some influence, but this was a Protestant country and the Protestant ethic, mainstream, mainline Protestantism, and of course we look at the shape of mainline Protestantism in this country and it is in shambles, it is gone from the world of Christianity as I see it.

[....]

Mainline Protestantism is one of the oldest and most common religious families in America. Generally considered to be non-evangelical, non-Catholic Christians, including Congregationalists, Episcopalians, Methodists, northern Baptists, most Lutherans, Presbyterians, and other denominations, they represent about 45 million Americans. Making up about 16 percent of the electorate, they’re pretty evenly divided between Republicans and Democrats.

But in his speech, first flagged by Right Wing Watch, Santorum basically says these millions of Christian-Americans are not real Christians. At a time when Santorum and his party are grasping at straws to claim the Obama administration is waging war on Christianity, it seems that it was the candidate himself who declared war on one of the biggest groups of American Christians four years ago.

Christianity is large and diverse. This urge to define some set as "real Christians" and the rest as heretics (or unsaved or whatever term the true believer uses) harms both the religion itself and political life. But people like Santorum just can't help themselves. It's part of a long losing battle against modernity.

[Snickie]

I'm not a big fan of Catholics; they apparently have a ton of customs and whatnot that don't exist in the Bible. I mean, where does it say anything about Popes and bishops and cardinals in the Bible? Then again, I haven't done much research on the topic, so I could be wrong.

I wish Santorum could have heard the sermon at my church today. Powerful stuff, man.