Religion

[SekoETC]

...And Gamol in Hebrew.

"Gimel, the third letter in the Hebrew alphabet, represents kindness and nourishment. The root word, gamol, means camel and the written letter resembles the long neck of the camel."

Source: http://www.pursuingholiness.com/?cat=11

Case closed.

[Pie]

H.F........ Will you just listen corectly for a secont?

What i said, is that Marterdom means that you actually BELEIV that somthing happened. Many people are ready to marter themselves, but the thing is, are they martering themselves for a truth... or a lie?

Now, If you have had a vition of divinity, and are marterd, that means that you actually BELEIV that you saw divinity on earth. and since you beleiv it, and you have seen it actually happen, nobody has told you about it, YOU ACTUALLY ARE AN EYE WITNESS, AND ARE A MARTER, it means that either you are halucinating, or you actually saw it happen.

So, Marterdom means that you beleive that somthing is true.

Eye witnessing means that you have proof that somthing is true.

Martering becous of your eye witnessing, means that you are telling the truth when you give your evidence.

Does that make it any simpeller?

I do not disbeleiv that budists, or islamics, or taoisimists(spelling, and what is that anyway?) have marterd themselves. What I disbeliev, is that someone who is an eye witness, has actually marterd themselves. THAT RIGHT THERE is a true test of a belief.

[Joshuamonkey]

First off, changing Christ's word is bad, but who're you to say the Book of Mormon isn't Christ's word?

What are you talking about? When did I say that? If I did, I didn't mean it... I think you're arguing against the wrong person.

[west]

What i said, is that Marterdom means that you actually BELEIV that somthing happened. Many people are ready to marter themselves, but the thing is, are they martering themselves for a truth... or a lie?

Now, If you have had a vition of divinity, and are marterd, that means that you actually BELEIV that you saw divinity on earth. and since you beleiv it, and you have seen it actually happen, nobody has told you about it, YOU ACTUALLY ARE AN EYE WITNESS, AND ARE A MARTER, it means that either you are halucinating, or you actually saw it happen.

So, Marterdom means that you beleive that somthing is true.

Eye witnessing means that you have proof that somthing is true.

Martering becous of your eye witnessing, means that you are telling the truth when you give your evidence.

Does that make it any simpeller?

I do not disbeleiv that budists, or islamics, or taoisimists(spelling, and what is that anyway?) have marterd themselves. What I disbeliev, is that someone who is an eye witness, has actually marterd themselves. THAT RIGHT THERE is a true test of a belief.

I disagree. Anyone can be a martyr for a cause. Even someone who claims to have seen something divine. Martyrdom is just a death for a cause.

[formerly known as hf]

H.F........ Will you just listen corectly for a secont?

I have

What i said, is that Marterdom means that you actually BELEIV that somthing happened. Many people are ready to marter themselves, but the thing is, are they martering themselves for a truth... or a lie?

I guess you're about to tell me...

Now, If you have had a vition of divinity, and are marterd, that means that you actually BELEIV that you saw divinity on earth. and since you beleiv it, and you have seen it actually happen, nobody has told you about it, YOU ACTUALLY ARE AN EYE WITNESS, AND ARE A MARTER, it means that either you are halucinating, or you actually saw it happen.

Yes, I heard you, you said that before

So, Marterdom means that you beleive that somthing is true.

As did those who martyred themselves for Mohammed whilst he was alive

Eye witnessing means that you have proof that somthing is true.

Those who were with Mohammed were eye witnesses

Martering becous of your eye witnessing, means that you are telling the truth when you give your evidence.

People who fought with Mohammed were eye witnesses, and were prepared to give their life - martyr - themselves. So they, under your srgument, must have been telling the truth - the same as those who wrote the Bible

I do not disbeleiv that budists, or islamics, or taoisimists(spelling, and what is that anyway?) have marterd themselves. What I disbeliev, is that someone who is an eye witness, has actually marterd themselves. THAT RIGHT THERE is a true test of a belief.

?
Now you're making no sense.
You uphold the Bible as truth because you say the eye witnesses who wrote it were prepared to be martyrs.
I have explained, if you read, that there were numerous martyrs who died for the Islamic belief whilst Mohammed was alive - they were eye witness and martyrs which is just what you say makes their is a true test of their belief and makes their evidence the truth, in your words.

I do not disbeleiv that budists, or islamics, or taoisimists(spelling, and what is that anyway?) have marterd themselves. What I disbeliev, is that someone who is an eye witness, has actually marterd themselves.

Now, this is where I have been trying to make you understand. You pretend that you believe in the Bible as fact, because the writers were eye witnbesses and martyrs - that being both of those gives credibility to the Bible.

I have shown that there were Muslims who were both eye witnesses and martyrs - but you refuse to believe that happened. Why? because you don't believe in the Qur'an - fair enough.

Be truthful with yourself, Pie, you believe in the Bible because that's where you place your blind faith. Fair enough, I can respect that, if not understand it.

But trying to cliam that the Bible is somehow more credible because the writers of the Bible - the eye witnesses - were prepared to martyr themselves is a false argument. As I have shown that the same argument can be applied to at least the Qur'an, as well as other religious texts. By your argument, it gives just as much credibility to the Islamic texts as the Christian texts.

[Nalaris]

First off, changing Christ's word is bad, but who're you to say the Book of Mormon isn't Christ's word?

What are you talking about? When did I say that? If I did, I didn't mean it... I think you're arguing against the wrong person.

Just arguing against the world in general, not you. We're on the same side, Joshuamonkey.

By the way, in the America's prophet's had been telling the people's of the Book of Mormon about Christ for generations. When Christ came there after his resseruction it had a huge impact on the world as they knew it (and the world nearly blew itself up when he died).

Please, for the love of all that is good, do not bring up the topic of abortion again.

Did I miss any points in the course of the argument? Or am I all caught up to speed?

EDIT: I almost forgot, Pie needs some backup.

Hallucinating Farmer, you spend so much time trying to break down the concept of religion being real, why don't you try working the other way? Prove your own point, prove religion couldn't happen, that all the miracles that happen to only occur to the righteous is just pure chance, and that the feeling I get inside me as I write this does not originate from the Holy Ghost. Prove your point, instead of trying to do the impossible and prove ours wrong. Go ahead and try, HF.

[formerly known as hf]

Hallucinating Farmer, you spend so much time trying to break down the concept of religion being real, why don't you try working the other way? Prove your own point, prove religion couldn't happen, that all the miracles that happen to only occur to the righteous is just pure chance, and that the feeling I get inside me as I write this does not originate from the Holy Ghost. Prove your point, instead of trying to do the impossible and prove ours wrong. Go ahead and try, HF.

?

You probably already know my position on 'truth' and good/evil - proof is just as subjective.

For some people, the Bible alone is proof of Christ. People will take whatever they want as 'proof', and ignore and deny 'proof' that others may produce.

That's not proof, that's faith. Christianity cannot be prooven, the same way Buddhism, Hinduism, any other religion can't be proven.

Neither can it be fully disproven - nothing can be fully disproven, nothing has a probability of zero.

I just get annoyed when people try to 'proove' their religion - they don't seem to realise that what they're on about, and it's not just Pie, is not proof, or fact, but blind faith.

I am not trying to disprove any religion, I just want people to accept that NO religion exists without blind faith. Religious belief rarely works on someone weighing up the facts and figures and making a choice, it relies on blind faith. Something which I find occasionally disturbing, but that's another discussion.

You have your religion - so I assume you chose it rather than other religions. If you are so certain about the proof of your own religion, Nalaris, do what you asked of me, but for another religion? Proove that Islam, or Buddhism, or any other widely held religion is false?

[deadboy]

HF's got some good points there. He cannot prove religion to be false as you cannot disprove anything. Statistically I could say that a coin has more than three chances. Landing heads, tails, or the unlikely chance of it landing on it's side. It could change into a rabbit in mid air. And trust me this can be proved using statistics because it's pretty messed up. So I could then base a religion on the magical rabbit that came from a coin, and you could not prove it didn't happen

[west]

I've noticed, by the way, that most Christians, when "disproving" other religions, just list the ways where those religions disagree with or contradict Christianity, and judge their veracity by that preassumed standard.

Incidentally, H.F., you might be interested in either the Flying Spaghetti Monster (may His appendages always be noodly) or the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

(Disclaimer: Westerly was raised Christian, is currently agnostic, and likes poking holes in arguments)

[SekoETC]

Some idiot used Flying Spaghetti Monster in Cantr. Man that makes me mad every time I think about it. And do you guys have to be so damn mean? No other religion dares to claim their founder is the Son of God. Jesus was. And still is. Since he didn't stay in the grave though everyone else is long dead.

There are different versions of the story, it sounds pretty flashy that the earth was trembling and an angel rolled off the stone singlehandedly, as it was written in Gospel according to Matthew. But all the versions state that the stone was indeed off it's place. The apostles could've done it, they were at their homes, afraid that they would be next. They thought it was all over. They were crushed. They didn't believe He could rise from the dead, it was beyond their understanding. We can think of natural explanations, an earthquake could've made the stone move. Or a lightning could've struck it, and maybe the soldiers at guard, being superstitious, thought that they saw an angel and ran away or fainted.

But the grave was empy. Who would've moved the body? If the Romans had done it, they would've put it on display to prove people He's dead when the rumours started moving. And if the apostles did it, how could they have suddenly pulled themselves together and go rejoicing on the streets, telling everybody how they've received the Holy Spirit? Could you keep up such pretense if you knew your leader was in fact lying in some toolshed, dead and cold? You might rise up for revenge, but certainly not in joy and full of faith. Plus Jesus was seen by several people after his death. (So is Elvis Presley...) But this was something bigger.

[formerly known as hf]

I knew about the spaghetti monster - I like arguments like that which lack subtlety...

I wasn't aware of the Invisible Pink Unicorn - but I like it... Invisible and Pink

Edit: Actually, I realised I have heard of it - I've used the invisible green dragon argument myself before, and just saw they're pretty much from the same argument, I didn't relaise IPU was more popular...

[west]

Again, Seko, you're arguing for a particular religion based on accounts in the holy book of that religion. It's circular, because of course they're going to corraborate your beliefs. Which you have based on the book.

[SekoETC]

Not based on the book... Based on the personal feeling inside. Fundamentally does it matter if your god truly exists? As long as you have the feeling you can trust in something that's higher than yourself, like some people believed in Stalin. People are very small alone.

I could state many points of Bible which have later been proven archeologically, but Pie tried that earlier and made a fool of himself. What goes to prove Jesus's holy origin to one who doesn't want to belive?

It has happened though... Saul hated Christians and was hunting and killing them. Then all of a sudden he was struck blind and heard the voice of God asking him why is he doing it. And how about that, he converted and changed his name to Paul. But of course he didn't really exist. Just like Jesus didn't exist in the first place, though he's mentioned in other writings of the age. It's all a big conspiracy. First someone with a time machine planted omens in Jewish scriptured, posed as angels and prophets, then there was some hoax of a spaceship hauling a big lightbulb over Betlehem just to freak out some astrologists. The aliens had drugged Mary and injected alien sperm into her so that she gave birth to a child who was wise enough to debate with rabbis in the temple at the age of 12. He also had a matter converter to multiply bread and fish to feed a bunch of people, 4000 it says in one, 5000 in other source. Now can't these people even count? That must prove it's totally inaccurate. (Now, a thousand here and there should say that there were numerous people). Then he was curing the blind and paralyzed and insane schitzophrenics (since there ain't any demons either, that's a hoax too), and raised a couple of people from the dead. Now Lasarus was already smelling so bad that people had to step back. But Jesus the alien hybrid pulled a time-freezer from his pocket, ZAP! and he took a cell from Lasarus's dead body, it was taken on the space ship and a new guy was cloned and grown really fast, then they planted the memories from the corpse's brain to him, to make it look like it was the same person, and got rid of the corpse. And then time could be unfrozen again. See, it's all logical. Then he told Judas to sell him out to the enemy, as the gnostics so wisely recorded, since he was a mind reader too and could scan people's minds to check which one to trust. It was planted on Jewish Easter just to create good drama. Now Jesus went to Getsemane and pulled a big solo, even though he must've known he'd be ok. Or maybe not. After all, he was just a hybrid. What if the alien fathers were pulling his leg? But he still went on the cross for some reason, silently as a lamb to the slaughter, maybe they put some novocaine in his wrists though he was grimacing pretty convincingly. He wasn't like, really dead since aliens can stop their life functions and emit fluid into their lungs to fool people. Then he was taken to the grave and zap! the space ship blasted the stone away and tranquilized the guards. Then they waited for somebody to come by. Now Jesus was in his ethereal alien form. Yay. And he could walk through doors and stuff. Then they implanted these translator microbes into the heads of townspeople so that a bit later they could hear the apostles speaking all the languages. And once the seed was planted good enough, they went to do some other shit, ready to come invade one day and beam us up on a gigantic spaceship. Yeah and they'll blast everybody. There's a secret substance in the water, it's all around. Water is the point, that's why they said everyone must be baptised. The secret particles go to your brain and when they meet certain thoughts, they grow this mark there, right behind the forehead, exept that it's invisible to our senses. But anyway, when they come back then they scan people for those marks and beam up those who have them and then they blow up the earth. Oh yeah, though first they plant snakes and plague and stuff, just to make people miserable, since that's what they deserve.

[deadboy]

Hey wow, Seko's got a point there , and I know just what to call his new religion. Scientology. Good god I hate that "religion".

[Solfius]

Please have mercy, that paragraph nearly fills my entire browsing space, and I have a big screen!