Religion

[Pie]

I agree Hermi.

Nobody has actually taken my "building blocks don't equal life" argunment.

and I'm sure there may be something in here that I've not actually considerd.

So, first I will give you this to think apon... then I'll try and stop the debaiting.

God is not all.

God does not controll all.

that dosen't mean he is all powerful.

i will explain it like this.

1) god created us, and we have free will, so thusly God is not all.
2) God does not controll all. Simply put, we have free will, and he does not controll us. so he dosen't controll all.


to explain why he isn't all powerful is a little more complex.

God dosen't have power over us, so he is -currently- not all powerfull. If he wanted to, he could snap his fingers and make us all slaves, but he dosen't, becaus he knows better. He has controll over everything, but he chooses not to.

And to prove that he is still good, even though he allows evil:

You see, this is my theory. In the beggining, before the earth or the angels were created, God was all. He had controll of all. But he wasn't good. For, how can you say that a Pizza is good if you have never tried it. I believe, that god created the world, to test himself. He had us all have free will, becaus if we were slaves, then there would be no need for him to make hard choises (example, to kill us or not to kill us). It's all just a test.

that's my theory. For a wile I forgot that I knew that...

[west]

"Where two principles really do meet which cannot be reconciled with one another, then each man declares the other a fool and a heretic."

- Wittgenstein

[Elros]

You see, this is my theory. In the beggining, before the earth or the angels were created, God was all. He had controll of all. But he wasn't good. For, how can you say that a Pizza is good if you have never tried it. I believe, that god created the world, to test himself. He had us all have free will, becaus if we were slaves, then there would be no need for him to make hard choises (example, to kill us or not to kill us). It's all just a test.

Um.... ok, now you are making yourself look dumb. : (

[Dee]

Yeah, Pie.. Now you're talking BS.

[Nakranoth]

1)Anything an infallible entity does is perfect.
2)Nothing that is entirely Good can want Evil.

3)God is infallible.
4)God created everything else.
5)God is entirely Good.
6)Evil exists.

1: yes.
2: yes.
3: yes.
4: yes.
5: yes.
6: yes.

Alright Pie... you must be confused because you've managed to contradict yourself with this.

If God is infallible and created everything, then God wanted Evil, and thus cannot be entirely Good.

If God is entirely Good and Evil exists, then something other then God created Evil.
If something other then God created Evil, and God is both entirely good and infallible, that thing could not have been created by God, and thus God did not create everything else.

If God created everything else, is entirely Good, and Evil exists, God cannot be infallible.

If God is entirely Good, infallible, and created everything else, Evil does not exist.

[Pie]

Let me explain it in a differen't way.

(Sorry, sometimes i get exited and grammer, or something is lacking. so let me look at the post.....)

You see, this is my theory. In the beggining, before the earth or the angels were created, God was all. He had controll of all. But he wasn't good. For, how can you say that a Pizza is good if you have never tried it. I believe, that god created the world, to test himself. He had us all have free will, becaus if we were slaves, then there would be no need for him to make hard choises (example, to kill us or not to kill us). It's all just a test.

this is what I said.

hmm. was it that pizza thing? sorry, it was the only analogy I could come up with.

God is infallible and created everything, and God wanted Evil, to test us, and himself.

^ thats the main point of my argument.

Becaus without evil, it would all be good, and we would never need to doubt God. Becaus, well, think about it. is anything you do, can anything be considerd -good- without it first being tested? So god saw the need for his creatures to have something pitted against them. That's were the tree came from. He created the tree of the knouledg of good and evil becaus Adam and Eve had nothing to worry about, and no reason to doubt god. God wanted to give them a reason, to see if they truly loved him. That is the single purpose of evil. God created it and once we fell from his grace (adam and eve ate the apple, you know the story) He let it have free reigns onto the world.

Did I sound better that time?

That's what I think, and when you think about it, it kinda makes sence (at least to me it does. *shrugs* but then again I'm the kind of person who thinks that evolution is crazy and that the building blocks of life couldn't have been formed from the actuall chemicles (sulfer, nitrodgen ext..) that inhabited early earth)

[Antichrist_Online]

Btw. On my responses, I'm not saying those are 100% the way it happened. If given better evidence I will change my mind, however it must be real evidence and not childrens stories.

To quote a song by one of my favorite bands: "You define what you believe" (However for me this has to have grounding in reality. The Theory of Evolution may not be 100% accurate but the Law of Evolution is. Same with gravity [Law = observed trends, Theory = explaination]).

[Pie]

well, I would debait the actuall posibility of evolution, But I've come to a point were I Believe that EVOLUTION DOSEN'T MATTER! You can evolve all you want, but god is needed to create life (see my post sometime earlyer about "building blocks of life)

I SAY, we quit this thread.

[deadboy]

1) Yes, but who created your parents, and your parents' parents, and your parents' parents' parents, etc. etc. (you get the idea)? Who created Adam and Eve?

2) What causes the sun to heat in different places? Why?

3) Who created the photosensitive micro-organisms?

4) What makes the pressure go up and down and what causes tectonice plates (whatever that is) to move?

5) Don't even get me started on that one.

6) And that too. I don't believe in Evolution.

7) There is soul, it's not a fairy tale. Human cloning hasn't happened but there's the chance that it would happen soon. It's just not allowed.
If there isn't a soul, then how could people whose hearts stop for a few minutes still be able to stay alive? And what about those people whose organs are not working, but are living off on machines? (Like my sister, for example) Those people, and people in genereal, do not die unless their soul is gone.

All right Dee, let me put it this way, if you don't believe in Evolution despite there being no need to "believe" in it due to overwhelming evidence effectively proving it truth. For example the fact that we have actually physically seen it happen, many times, repeatably. In any case, if you do not believe scientific truths there is no way, no way whatsoever, that we are going to even slightly get through to you let alone make you understand the complexity of the randomness that caused everything to happen and will cause everything to happen. To put it simply, to understand the world more completely, you must open your mind to ideas which take time and patience to grasp instead of leaping to the simplest and easiest conclusion in order to put your mind at rest. Or of course, much more simply, you don't, you are happy in your beliefs, but you understand very little. It's a choice you must make.

1) We first evolved from an apelike creature, also the ancestor of chimpanzees and the like, near a sea or swamp, likely with tall grass, near the equator. Proof of this - our genetics - they link us closely to these animals, fossils - They show a graduation between the apes leading to us, minus the one "missing link" due to the fact that leaps in evolution tend to happen during great changes and over only one or two generations, and so the "missing link" may only be five or six creatures and none may have formed fossils, the fact that we are the only mammals whose babies float in water - advantage in long trips through water, the fact that our hair faces the way of the current unlike any mammal - advantage again when travelling in water currents due to aerodynamics, the fact that we stand - advantage in tall grasses, the differentation in our skin colour - near the equator when we evolved our dark skin stopped burning, as we moved outwards we didn't need it and so we turned olive coloured, even further north we became white.

2) Nothing is ever going to be constant, due to randomness, chaos theory, call it what you like, many factors are always going to have an effect on both each other and the outcome and therefore nothing remains constant. Heat changes in the sun just like heat will be different in different areas of a room, the heat coming from the centre of the sun where the fusion is taking place is not always going to be equal on all surfaces of the sun and the overall heat is not always going to be the same as the fusion may speed up or speed down.

3) They evolved from early basic single-celled organisms which evolved from even more basic organisms which evolved from random floating strings of RNA as when something can reproduce and it has mutations evolution will always occur due to survival of the fittest and other factors. The RNA was created first from amino acids caused by known and reproduced experiments using the conditions on this planet at the time they were formed. The animo acids then folded into protiens, the part we cannot yet perfect (But are getting close to, as it will not only help us understand this but also help us cure cancer, say take the folding@home project) due to completely random circumstance. The protiens then very naturally formed RNA. May I point out if you say that this is too much of a coincidence or impossible that it is happening millions of times inside our body every second, and that here it only needed to happen once over millions of years.

4) The surface of our earth is a hard crust which is cracked into many pieces with floats on the liquid mantle. Each piece is a tectonic plate. Again, things such as changes in heat due to the fact that nothing is ever going to remain totally constant causes the changes in pressure etc which cause earthquakes. Earthquakes are causes when an oceanic plate moves towards a continental plate. The oceanic plate is forced underneath the continental plate and melts. However, the oceanic plate sometimes "sticks" against the continental plate and so although there is a force downwards it isn't moving, which causes pressure to build up. When the plate finally slides all this pressure is released in the form of an earthquake. Think of it like... trying to cut through something very hard. As you increase the pressure on it, you may not cut through, but then suddenly the pressure is released quickly and the knife moves very quickly and quite uncontrollably through it.

5) Then I won't

6) Evolution is a known fact, as I said before, to understand the universe properly you have to accept known facts such as these instead of passing them off as they make you feel insecure

7) There is no soul. Death is difficult to define, although medically it is when the brain is no longer functioning. Note that a person therefore is not dead when the heart stops. When a persons heart stops it takes the brain several minutes to be starved of oxygen and several more minutes for it to shut down, as it reverts to a very primitive form first, a coma. This period is extended dramatically if someones performs CPR as the blood is still pumped around the body to the brain and so it is not starved of oxygen. So the person has not died. The same with those whose organs are not working, they are still alive so long as the brain is functional, and the machines they are on act as those organs to keep the brain alive. A soul need not play a part on it, it is all to do with the brain staying functional

Well, I hope that provided you with a little insight

[Dee]

So, you're basically saying that Adam was an ape. Or an ape-like creature.

Suppose the law of evolution is true, that still doesn't change the fact that there is a God and that He created everything on Earth.

And there is soul... It's one of the biggest secrets of life, perhaps the biggest ever. Scientists will never be able to prove it, so it's just accepted as a fact, without proof, very much like God.

I don't even know why I post in this thread, I'm obviously not going to change your minds about anything, and you certainley aren't going to change mine.

[deadboy]

So, you're basically saying that Adam was an ape. Or an ape-like creature.

Suppose the law of evolution is true, that still doesn't change the fact that there is a God and that He created everything on Earth.

And there is soul... It's one of the biggest secrets of life, perhaps the biggest ever. Scientists will never be able to prove it, so it's just accepted as a fact, without proof, very much like God.

I don't even know why I post in this thread, I'm obviously not going to change your minds about anything, and you certainley aren't going to change mine.

In order

Yes, the first ancestors of humans, call them "Adam" if you will, were apes or ape like beings because suprise suprise we still are.

The next two are not facts nor will they ever be facts

And finally we post in this thread because its good fun to argue out a point ... or at least that's why I do

[Antichrist_Online]

I'm saying Adam was made from "stuff" which they called clay. (Though in my case there was no Adam, there was an equivalent first human made from wood (organic matter) from the world tree (The universal media)). I just think it too a long time and alot of intermediate steps instead of "poof" and it been there. I see no fault in a "God" starting it, or fixing the numbers, or causing morality, but there's no proof either way.

[deadboy]

God wanted to give them a reason, to see if they truly loved him. That is the single purpose of evil.

I'm sorry but I really couldn't help myself here, the oportunity was too great

So are you calling God vain? That he needs reassurance that the beings he created loved him, because last time I checked Pride was one of the seven deadly sins, so your whole argument that God is good but evil was created to test us has just gone way done the drain. Either God is good or he tested us but he can't have been both

[Dee]

There will never be proof to God's existence, and that's the whole point in worshiping him. We don't need proof, we just need our faith. And if scientific facts do anything, they in fact strengthen my beliefs.

Adam was made from clay, as the rest of all man kind.

Actually, evil exists so that God tests our level of faith, and how much we believed in Him. God does not need us to love him.

[deadboy]

Actually, evil exists so that God tests our level of faith, and how much we believed in Him. God does not need us to love him.

I'm interested, go into more detail, why should God test our level of faith?