Esperanto

[Junesun]

what exactly IS esperanto? i know i'm not real hot at geography, but last time a checked there was no Esprainia or anything

Grrl, Esperanto is a planned language developed with the goal of being as easy to learn as possible. It is not the official language of any country, but you can find speakers of Esperanto ("Esperantists") in every city of the world. Please have a look at http://www.esperanto.net , that site is quite extensive and should answer any of your questions.


Floris:

This is absolutely nonsense in my opinion, I don't have anything against Esperanto, but I am sure that anyone who speaks esperanto can also speak english.

Not true. In China I have met a lot of Esperantists who either did not speak English or whose English was so poor that any meaningful conversation had to be held in Esperanto.

There is no country in the world with esperanto as native language and there is no way that less educated people speak this. So if you say that you can communicate well within the group of people who learned Esperanto, alright that's maybe true. But 99% of all people will not speak esperanto ever nor learn it.

It's true that Esperanto isn't the official language of any country and there are very few native speakers, and I would not have it any other way. Why? Because Esperanto is supposed to be neutral. It does not belong to any country, any race, any religious group, whatever. That's why some Esperantists were rabidly against proposing Esperanto as working language of the European Union. Also, Esperanto is not supposed to replace any native language, unlike Spanish, Russian, Chinese, English or just about any majority language. Zamenhof's idea was that everybody should learn Esperanto as a 2nd language, so that he could maintain his native language and use Esperanto for international communication only. That's why he made the language so easy to learn. Native languages don't have to be easy; children will learn any language equally quickly as their native language. There are a very few Esperantist parents who brought up their children bilingually, but I don't think it's a good idea because it would remove some of the level field that Esperanto provides for everybody.
As for less educated people learning it: generally, less educated people are less likely to learn ANY language. However, the percentage of those learning Esperanto is comparatively high, because Esperanto can be learned for free. There are free courses, people teaching Esperanto free of charge throughout the world and humanitarian institutions like orphan villages that are funded by Esperantists and in which the children of course come into contact with Esperanto. Learning English, French or any dominant language however costs a lot of money. Particularly in third-world countries, knowing English or any such language is a sign of wealth, because only the wealthy can afford an advanced education or even foreign teachers.
I can not predict how many people will speak Esperanto at any point in the future. However, I'd like to point out that Esperanto has existed for more than 100 years now and while the movement has suffered under the wars and prosecution from dictators in the past, the current age of comparative peace, globalisation and especially the advent of commercial aircraft and the internet have led to a great increase in learners. I'd like to invite you and everybody else to read the article "Betting on Esperanto", which gives some great insights into the history of Esperano and the history of the Esperanto movement.

The tourist point is absolutely ridicilous, there is nothing about your language that sets you apart from the 'mass of tourists'. It is the behavior of you as a person when coming in contact with people.

I do not deny that people who learn esperanto are probably well educated, civilized, open-minded and interested in lots of different cultures and people(although the desire for a uniform language is for me something anti-cultural - civilization should never be artificial). But if you say that people will appreciate you more because you speak esperanto that is absolutely not true. I mean, I don't speak it, I am actually interested in it. But if I could speak it, with whom could I speak it? With the other few people that speak it. With them communication will probably be easy and fluent but no more than if I and my conversation partner would talk in english.

If you learn esperanto and don't learn the native language of the country you visit, you are in no way a less average than the people who speak english.

Imagine: you travel to any non-english country. Let's say Hungary, or Turkey. When you get off your plane and into the city and start talking esperanto, you will get nowhere and you are not bearing more respect to the native culture than if you where talking english.

I beg to disagree. You are showing more respect to the locals because you don't arrogantly assume that they know your native language, you show a readiness to meet them half-way, on an equal footing where neither party has an advantage over the other. You are more likely to find Esperantists than you would think and if you don't meet one right away, you can always visit the local Esperanto club or go to one of the people listed in the Pasporta Servo (book with addresses of Esperantists who are ready to provide free accomodation to Esperanto-speaking tourists).
As for a uniform language: please see my point above about Esperanto being supposed to be a second language. Oh and there's Esperanto culture too: books, jokes, poetry, music, art, theatre plays, TV, festivals, traditions...

English is not only the native language of half a billion people in the world, it has also evolved into the language of international communication. It evolved along with international economy, politics, sports, development,...

Denying this means denying world culture. 100 years ago the international language was french, it was latin for almost ten centuries and it was greek for almost ten centuries as well.

I can understand that people don't want to speak English. That is their right. But you can not deny that English is the international language.

It is also not certain how long it will remain so. Chinese is moving up rather quickly, especially due to the economic development of China. Perhaps in ten, twenty years Chinese will be (partially) the international language. Maybe Spanish,...

I never denied that English is still a very important language for international communication, perhaps the most important one. But because of its association with the UK, USA and other anglophone countries, it will rise and fall with the power and importance of these countries in an international setting. Chinese is become more important at an impressing rate, just like the Chinese population and the Chinese economy is growing. These nation-based languages cannot maintain their position for too long, because they force themselves on people and people are ready to abandon them as soon as there's a new star in the sky, if not earlier. They invoke defiance and resentment amongst the patriotic citizens of other countries. I mean for example you'd be hard pressed to find a Frenchman who is happy that English has replaced French as the world language. Nor will you easily find an American happy to learn Chinese, Hindi or whatever the market requires if he could until then rely on his business partners speaking English. Esperanto, being neutral and learned voluntarily, without pressure from the economy, the government by way of the educational system or the like, is a people's choice of an international language and will remain unaffected of international developments.


Coramon: I have started writing the course. You find it at: http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7698

[Jos Elkink]

Haven't read this thread, but I just wanted to say that even though I might not do the exercises, I do read the Esperanto thread, and very much enjoy it. I also love the idea that you make it a Cantr-specific course ... I look forward to seeing Cantr objects and animals in Esperanto ... Very nice job.

[Junesun]

Jos: I am glad you enjoy the thread and the course. Though, doing exercises never harmed anybody, even if the exercises were below his level.

In case anybody is interested: I am currently hosting an Esperanto reading room on Paltalk. It is suitable for both beginners and more advanced learners. Please join in!
My nickname is Junesun on Paltalk, just send me a message and I'll invite you. Or look for the room "Read Esperanto with us!" in the "Distance Learning" folder.

[choriste]

" This is absolutely nonsense in my opinion, I don't have anything against Esperanto, but I am sure that anyone who speaks esperanto can also speak english. "
And on what self-serving, specious, Rhodesian concept or statistic would such an overtly confident and smug affirmation be based ? In fact, most Esperantists I have met, and there have been many, throughout the world, do not have such a good command of the language of Shakespeare. I can confirm what Judith just retorted on this issue. I too once had a conversation with a Chinaman in a chat room. Without Esperanto, there simply would not have been a conversation.
No one is arguing that it is not impractical to learn English, in terms of present-day world-wide acceptance. For the immediate and forseeable future, until the world finally manages to grasp the reunifying possibilities of Esperanto, doing away with our incessant parochial squabbles, we are indeed stuck with English as the lingua franca... to be shortly replaced with, yes, Mandarin. That is not the point. The point is that Esperanto represents an ideal, yes, but one that could easily become a practical solution, should we one day display the political will, courage and imagination to implement it.
On a simpler note...to the question, why the heck bother learning Esperanto, might I quip : why not ? It is the easiest language to learn that I know, certainly far simpler than my native French. I learnt it in a couple of weeks, up to a level sufficent to become conversational in it. After studying a couple of chapters in a grammar book, I realized that I did not even need bother. I started hanging out at an Esperanto room on the Pal Talk system and quickly gained a conversational knowledge there, merely by speaking it, with other Esperantists.
We Esperantists have our work cut out for us : dispelling the depressingly routine myths we constantly have to hear about the language and what it represents.
Bravo, Judith ! ... for your valiant efforts in this respect.
If I might be of any assistance in this project, please let me know.
jf

[Jos Elkink]

Jos: I am glad you enjoy the thread and the course. Though, doing exercises never harmed anybody, even if the exercises were below his level.

I fear it is time contraints rather than arrogance ...

[Junesun]

Again, I'm hosting an Esperanto reading room on Paltalk, which is suitable for both beginners and more advanced learners. Please join in!
My nickname is Junesun on Paltalk, just send me a message and I'll invite you. Or look for the room "Read Esperanto with us!" in the "Distance Learning" folder.

[cantrlady]

I am interested.

[Floris]

Floris:

I beg to disagree. You are showing more respect to the locals because you don't arrogantly assume that they know your native language, you show a readiness to meet them half-way, on an equal footing where neither party has an advantage over the other. You are more likely to find Esperantists than you would think and if you don't meet one right away, you can always visit the local Esperanto club or go to one of the people listed in the Pasporta Servo (book with addresses of Esperantists who are ready to provide free accomodation to Esperanto-speaking tourists).
As for a uniform language: please see my point above about Esperanto being supposed to be a second language. Oh and there's Esperanto culture too: books, jokes, poetry, music, art, theatre plays, TV, festivals, traditions...

I never denied that English is still a very important language for international communication, perhaps the most important one. But because of its association with the UK, USA and other anglophone countries, it will rise and fall with the power and importance of these countries in an international setting. Chinese is become more important at an impressing rate, just like the Chinese population and the Chinese economy is growing. These nation-based languages cannot maintain their position for too long, because they force themselves on people and people are ready to abandon them as soon as there's a new star in the sky, if not earlier. They invoke defiance and resentment amongst the patriotic citizens of other countries. I mean for example you'd be hard pressed to find a Frenchman who is happy that English has replaced French as the world language. Nor will you easily find an American happy to learn Chinese, Hindi or whatever the market requires if he could until then rely on his business partners speaking English. Esperanto, being neutral and learned voluntarily, without pressure from the economy, the government by way of the educational system or the like, is a people's choice of an international language and will remain unaffected of international developments.

Alright, it seems that I did not know enough about Esperanto.

Yet, I still cannot agree entirely on your points. My native language is Dutch, I have done a lot of travelling, never learned Esperanto. Yet I almost never use my native language abroad(unless, ofcourse, when in Dutch-speaking countries or when in contact with other native Dutch speakers). I can speak French, English, German and Spanish(the latter two not as well as the first two). On top of that when in a country with another native language than these five I'm comfortable in, I try to learn some basic vocabulary and communication. In these countries I will often have to use English or French to succesfully communicate with people there. Learning Esperanto and use it in these situations would not change the fact that I can not speak the native language well. Learning Esperanto would probably not have any effect on my motivation or intention to try learning some of the language. Why do I travel because I'm interested in other cultures, people and countries. But can I learn all about them? No. I understand the point that everyone learning Esperanto as a 2nd language would make international communication a lot easier.

But what would happen? A lot of people learning two languages, his native one and Esperanto. There would definitely people learning more about other languages, but the people lacking the time or the will to learn these would not do so ever.

I like to point out that I admire the people learning Esperanto a lot, but that I have serious doubts about the use and the future of it. According to me, it will work anti-cultural, and further homogenize the World(which is disturbing, and not only caused by languages, but also by architecture, consumption, cultural globalisation,...).

(Example: I have just been a week to France(skiing though, so it wasn't a cultural trip). Anyway I know French and I initiate conversations with French people in French. What do they do? Go over in English... I was really shocked to come accross this and I tried to avoid it as much as possible, but whenever they heard that French is not my native language they went over to English, which is not my native language either. I spoke more English than French this last week, and that is not right. I can not say that I had actually any contact with the French culture this last week, except perhaps a few local dishes(raclette, tartiflette,...which I would encourage all of you to try one day, delicious! ))

Please prove my arguments wrong, I'd like to see it work, but I can not see it work, ever.

And why? Costs..., routines.., unwill...

Perhaps not the costs of learning, but others, like the costs of overhauling entire institutions, systems,... throughout the world.


[/quote]

[tiddy ogg]

I dabbled in Esperanto 45 years ago... you could tell it was invented by a foreigner, *grin*. Can't remember why, but there were far too many unnecessary complications in it to claim it is easily learned. Anyone trying to create an international language should ditch the letter J for a start, as it's pronounced in so many different ways. Pidgin German would be a much better bet, cutting out all the gender junk.

[west]

Esperanto uses a different letter for each j-sound it utilizes.

[UloDeTero]

Floris, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that it's a bad thing to have an easier method of communication when you really want to use the native tongue. That is: It was a 'bad thing' that English was available and used when you really only wanted to practise your French.

That's what I got from it, apologies if I misunderstood.

My answer would be, that if you want to immerse yourself in French you should be able to, and if the French insist on speaking English, you have every right to scold them and tell them to 'speak French for goodness sake!' As far as Esperanto, it is intended to be a secondary ('auxilliary', I think the word is) language for easy communication between people who don't know each others' languages. If you wish to speak the national language, I think I speak for all Esperantists when I say 'Go ahead!' Esperanto was never meant to replace national languages, but to be an easy method of communication when the national language isn't known.

As an example, if you know Dutch and you travel to Japan, you don't know Japanese, and they don't know Dutch. But if you both speak Esperanto you can communicate happily. However, if you are actively trying to learn Japanese, then go ahead and do that. A Japanese Esperantist would find it easy to teach you Japanese (if you know Esperanto too), because you already have a language in common, that was easy for you both to learn.

If the whole world knew Esperanto, it would not destroy culture, etc. In fact, it would probably improve world relations since everyone can understand each other. Everyone who wanted to learn other national languages could of course do so. But no one would be obligated to do so, in order to find jobs, etc. It'd be more-or-less the same as it is now, except everyone could understand each other.

[Junesun]

Here's a site with testimonials about Esperanto. And it's by the BBC, not a site by Esperantists: http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/multilingua ... anto.shtml

[Peanut]

This is rather interesting.

[Junesun]

The Esperanto room on Paltalk (www.paltalk.com) is open again!
If you want to join, just send me a message and I'll invite you. My nickname is Junesun. Or look for the room "Read Esperanto with us!" in the "Distance Learning" folder.