American Civil War Buffs

[rklenseth]

You talking about the war of Northern aggression?

I'm a Yankee. Notice that I'm from New York who turned out more men for war against those rebel states who betrayed the Union.

Lincoln betrayed the Union by destroying the Constitution and throwing out the Declaration of Independence.

I was once a Yankee sympathizer and Lincoln was one of my favorite presidents until I learned the truth behind the war.

It ended up not freeing the slaves, yet it released them from private bondage, but began the process of making us all slaves.

Well the Supreme Court did rule that most of what he did was Constitutional. And personally, I'm a Unionist. Lincoln said he would preserve the Union no matter what and that's exactly what he did. What Lincoln did is not a secret. Most American History buffs know well what he did but as I would like to point out the Supreme Court ruled everything Lincoln as Constitutional, siting that it times of crises and wars, the President has the right to suspend the Constitution and the law in order to protect the country.

Oh, yes. David, those floating bridges are called pontoons.

And whoever asked, the American Civil War is America's bloodiest war still. 600,000 Americans died during the war. If you combine every other war that Amerca has fought then the deaths in those wars barely add over 600,000. Only about a 1 million Americans have died in all the wars that America has fought.

[rklenseth]

Of course the Constitution was flawed from the start by allowing slavery in the first place. That was one of the great compromises. It was a very unfortunate one.

Yes, the Slave States would not have joined otherwise.

The reasons for the Slave States leaving the Union was because they believed that Lincoln would eventually get abolish slavery. He had already begun steps to do this when he entered office by a signing a law that said every new state from now on would not have the option of to decide that they would be a slave state or a free state but they would become a free state only. This upsetted the balance between slave and free states and the slave states thought overtime that they would lose their power in the Congress and Senate. They were also pretty bitter over that Lincoln did not win the popular vote (like Bush in 2000).

[rklenseth]

Anyways, anybody ever hear about the Dalghren Conspiracy? I would presume not sunless you're a Civil Wat Buff like me. If so do you think that was the reason why Jefferson Davis authorized the Confederate War Department to hire assassins to kill Lincoln?


And where do you think the Lost Brigade went to? I find it hard to believe that 3,000 men would just disappear. They know they didn't desert nor did they surrender. Some believe that the Confederates kill them all and then did something with the bodies to hide it though that is very unlikely unless these soldiers were led by Forrest, Quantrill, or Mosby but either they were dead by this time or were somewhere else. There are even theories that they fell into a inter-stellar dimension and are now in another dimension or that aliens abducted them. Either way whatever happened those 3,000 men are still missing and no evidence to this date has been found to prove where they went or even suggest. Wierd, huh?

[rklenseth]

You talking about the war of Northern aggression?

I'm a Yankee. Notice that I'm from New York who turned out more men for war against those rebel states who betrayed the Union.

Lincoln betrayed the Union by destroying the Constitution and throwing out the Declaration of Independence.

I was once a Yankee sympathizer and Lincoln was one of my favorite presidents until I learned the truth behind the war.

It ended up not freeing the slaves, yet it released them from private bondage, but began the process of making us all slaves.

Well the Supreme Court did rule that most of what he did was Constitutional. And personally, I'm a Unionist. Lincoln said he would preserve the Union no matter what and that's exactly what he did. What Lincoln did is not a secret. Most American History buffs know well what he did but as I would like to point out the Supreme Court ruled everything Lincoln as Constitutional, siting that it times of crises and wars, the President has the right to suspend the Constitution and the law in order to protect the country.

Oh, yes. David, those floating bridges are called pontoons.

And whoever asked, the American Civil War is America's bloodiest war still. 600,000 Americans died during the war. If you combine every other war that Amerca has fought then the deaths in those wars barely add over 600,000. Only about a 1 million Americans have died in all the wars that America has fought.

Oh, I forgot to point out the Elastic Clause of the Constitution. In fact the key point of the Constitution that has made the Constitution flexible and not strictly interpretted (sp?). So as far as what Lincoln did, it was Constitutional as well as legal.

Now if you were to point out what Andrew Jackson did to the Native Americans (or American Indians) of South Carolina and Georgia, that was wrong. Especially since Jackson did it even after the Supreme Court rules that it was not Constitutional. He said that if the Supreme Court believes it is law then let them enforce the law ( probably not the actual quote but pretty close to what he said). What Jackson did was illegal since it was determined by the Supreme Court as unconstitutional.

[Meh]

Well I was raised in the south and of course was never told about the ruling nor the clause that would allow this.

Is there a website somewhere on this partuclar topic? Now I'm curious.

We are prisoners of what we are told is the truth by others who do not know the facts.

Cantr charcters are not as easiliy fooled by what the goverment says is true or correct.

[rklenseth]

Well I was raised in the south and of course was never told about the ruling nor the clause that would allow this.

Is there a website somewhere on this partuclar topic? Now I'm curious.

We are prisoners of what we are told is the truth by others who do not know the facts.

Cantr charcters are not as easiliy fooled by what the goverment says is true or correct.

"Lincoln Increases Power
Despite the new president's message of both conciliation and warning, the danger of war breaking out between the Union and the seceding states was acute. When Lincoln announced plans to provision Fort Sumter (South Carolina) Southern guns thundered their reply and thus, on April 12, 1861, the war began. More than any previous president, Lincoln acted in unprecedented ways, drawing power as both chief executive and commander-in-chief, often without authorization or approval of Congress (who was not in session). Lincoln later explained that his actions without congressional approval were "indispensable to the public safet". Lincoln's wartime actions set a precedent for future presidents: Simply put, during time of war or crisis, the president gets the power."

That passage came from my US History Text.

The court case: Ex Parte Milligan (1866) which ruled that the president has full power in time of crisis and war. The only thing ruled unconstitutional was Lincoln's use of military courts instead of civilian courts for those who rebelled against the Union. This led to the term during 'a clear and present danger' against the US then the power goes to the president and all Constitutional rights can be suspended in order to protect the United States against a danger. But it would be up to your opinion of what is 'a clear and present danger' (Elastic Clause!).

Other cases where this was the same ruling; Schenck v. the US (1919), Korematsu v. the US (1944)(though this was onverturned later because the a court later said that the Japanese-Americans did not pose 'a clear and present danger'), and Yates v. the US (1957).


"Elastic Clause
the last paragraph of Article I, Section 8, of the U.S. Constitution, giving Congress the power to "make all laws which shall be necessary and proper" for carrying out the powers and purposes of the Constitution. So named because it can be used to expand the powers of Congress to fit appropriate situations, the elastic clause has provided a flexibility that has made frequent amendment of the Constitution unnecessary."

Got this from http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/gahff/html/ff_060500_elasticclaus.htm

This allows the Congress to amend the Constitution as well as (not said in this paragraph but is in my American History notes) the Congress, President, and Supreme Court to loosely interpret the Constitution. The reason at the time for this clause was so that each generation of Americans can interpret the Constitution as they saw fit to the socierty at the time as well as allow the Constitution to be changed as the American society changed. The authors of the Constitution didn't want to create a government that did not change with the times (they cited this was a problem in Old Europe and that they would not make the same mistake when they went to write the US Constitution after the Articles of Confederation failed).

Article 1, Section 8, last paragraph of the US Constitution
"To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof."

My US History teacher said this was the most powerful point of the US Constitution. I hope it was that important because there is a full chapter of it in my US History Text.

I'm surprised that they didn't teach you this stuff in High School down South. I heard the public schooling down there was pretty bad but I didn't think it was that bad.

I hope that clears some things up but I'm sure we'll find something to argue about still . As far as websites go, you can get the worse of the bullshit from websites so many times I wouldn't pay attention to that stuff unless it is a highly respected organization or something of that nature.

I insure the Elastic Clause and those court cases are the real thing and are fact unless everything I learned in US History class was a lie which I'm sure isn't. [/url]

[watermelonnose]

Of course the Constitution was flawed from the start by allowing slavery in the first place. That was one of the great compromises. It was a very unfortunate one.

Yes, the Slave States would not have joined otherwise.

The reasons for the Slave States leaving the Union was because they believed that Lincoln would eventually get abolish slavery. He had already begun steps to do this when he entered office by a signing a law that said every new state from now on would not have the option of to decide that they would be a slave state or a free state but they would become a free state only. This upsetted the balance between slave and free states and the slave states thought overtime that they would lose their power in the Congress and Senate. They were also pretty bitter over that Lincoln did not win the popular vote (like Bush in 2000).

The Southern states had the right to leave, as free people they were altering the form of government that they were living under. If the argument is made that they were part of the union and the union was unseparable then using the same logic we should still be ruled by England.

There was more to it than slavery. It was an issue of growing federal power over the states. The states created the federal government with limited power, it just didn't stay that way so the South wanted out.

Just because the Supreme court rules something is constitutional doesn't mean it really is. (It may operate that way under law but that doesn't make it right) After all they ruled FRD's New Deal Constitutional! He of course stacked the court before hand. Most of what the federal government does today is unconstitutional.

The Supreme court wasn't given the role in the constitution to be the interpreter of the constitution, that is something they claimed for themselves.

What elastic clause are you talking about? The only elasticity is the admen dement process not the judicial activism process.

[watermelonnose]

[quote="rklenseth
"Elastic Clause
the last paragraph of Article I, Section 8, of the U.S. Constitution, giving Congress the power to "make all laws which shall be necessary and proper" for carrying out the powers and purposes of the Constitution. So named because it can be used to expand the powers of Congress to fit appropriate situations, the elastic clause has provided a flexibility that has made frequent amendment of the Constitution unnecessary."[/quote]

The only powers are listed in Article I Section 8. that clause wasn't designed to make the constitution elastic. It was only giving the Congress the power to make laws for those enumerated powers which were few.

The interpretation of that clause as elastic has made it possible for usurpers to overthrow the intent of the constitution and leave us an empty shell.

[watermelonnose]

Those school books being used in government schools would of course support those positions which support government power

One of the reasons government should not be involved in education.

[rklenseth]

I would totally disagree with you. The writers of the Constitution meant for the Constitution to be loosely interpretted and not strictly like you are claiming. They did this so that the govenrment could change with the changing times. The South claimed they had the right to leave because they joined volunteeringly but the North thought otherwise. I believe in the Union and in my government today. Plus, the South was always looking for a way out so they didn't have to deal with the Northern States bitching about slavery and thought that Lincoln was a good time to get out.

Remember Lincoln said that he would do anything to preserve the Union even if it meant keeping slavery or abolishing. He would have probably had made dealw with the radical South had they not fired on Fort Sumter.

We are also taught about FDR stacking the courts so that his New Deal Plan would be allowed because he knew that at the time the Conservative Justices would never pass his plans. Some would argue that the New Deal helped America out of the Depression (I would disagree because I believe it was World War II that allowed America to come out of the Depression).

The only powers are listed in Article I Section 8. that clause wasn't designed to make the constitution elastic. It was only giving the Congress the power to make laws for those enumerated powers which were few.

The interpretation of that clause as elastic has made it possible for usurpers to overthrow the intent of the constitution and leave us an empty shell.

Yet through a loose interpretation of that clause has given government that flexibility.


I wonder what rights you think that the government has infringed upon. Don't say the states had the right to leave the Union. They did not. That was only a self-proclaimed right by the Southern States that they called 'State's Rights'. It was never anything in the Constitution.

The Southern states had the right to leave, as free people they were altering the form of government that they were living under. If the argument is made that they were part of the union and the union was unseparable then using the same logic we should still be ruled by England.

You are correct but except about the English part. The Union was made inseparable after the American Civil War. America would probably still be a part of England today if they had lost but they didn't. In the Civil War case, the North won and the South lost.

You are asking that the US Constitution get turned into the Articles of Confederate which gave the central government to little power and no flexibility and a strict interpretation. The states put high tariffs on everything going into their state making trade between states difficult if not impossible. The central government was not allowed to print money or to have a bank of any kind for an exchange rate making it even more difficult for trade because every state had a different currency.

The South never wanted any central government in the first place, at least one that didn't have any power. I believe the US would not have survived if we didn't have a strong central government.

And education is done by the state not the federal government. That is a power given to the state level of government by the Constitution but yet you attack it as if it was controlled by the federal government. I went though public education and still am. There is nothing wrong with the public school system in New York except they put too much high standards bs on us for that stupid regents diploma.

My teacher wrote the US History Text as well as the course was an advanced college course. I believe all the sides in each issue was presented and the teacher made us interpret the history for ourselves and make the desicion of what was right and wrong. I was able to argue pretty well that the whole point of American Foreign Policy from 1790 to 1990 was about 'freedom of the seas' and protecting it. My teacher always spoke about how America is always about frontiers and change and stuff. I understood all of that but it's kind of hard to explain. Maybe I can find a passage in my text about it because that was my teacher's favorite point and interpretation of American History.

[Meh]

There is no doubt that the country is better off that the north won and made goverment a bit more centrailized and a bit more free.

I am only feeding back what you said here...

The court ruled that the president had the authoirty becuase there was a war.

However I do not see in any of that the the south was not allowed to leave the union and they were threatened with war if they tried.

We will never know if the south didn't shoot first which I guess they did whether the north would have done a preemptive strike like the south did.

Hmmm preemptive strike. Hmmmmmmm that sounds familiar for some reason. Hmmmmm.

[rklenseth]

Anyways, I did kind of want to keep this topic sort of the likes of objectivity but all of that was thrown out the window in the beginning.


Here's an account of one of my favorite battles;

The Short History of the Civil War By Fletcher Pratt

"The men moved out of town in parade formation, deployed into line, went forward with a rush and carried the lightly held rifle-pits. From above a stinging, unanswerable, intolerable rain of bullets beat down onto them. There was no cover. They hesitated; then Sheridan stood up, shouted "Here's how!" drained his half-pint of whisky (he was Irish, you know ), slung the flask up the slope and began to climb after it. The whole line suddenly went insane; from one end to the other they leaped out of the trenches as one man and fled - but forward.
That mountain is still there; with foothold and handhold you can climb it in half a day. The Army of the Cumberland went up it, musket in hand, with sixty cannons thundering in their faces, against two lines of trenches filled with soldiers who had every intent of killing the climbers. They went up singing discordant songs, yelling like savages, taking no account of their losses. In one regiment a bugler with his leg shot off sat on an outcrop of rock blowing Charge! till he fainted. Like flies they went straight over vertical pinnacles; like snakes through narrow chimneys a goat could not have negotiated. It was incredible, it was magnificient, it was not war, it was not anything, it was a monstrous paradox. Grant in the valley stood transfixed with astonishment for once in his life. "By whose orders are those men going up there?" he demande.
"By there own, I fancy," remarked Thomas calmly, and turned his glasses to catch a better view of the Confederates fleeing from their trenches half way up as the horde of maniacs burst in upon them. Sheridan, Baird, Whitaker, Hazen reached the creat all at once at different points, went right over the trenches at the top, bayonetted the gunners at their cannon and, without a pause to form, flung themselves into the midst of the Confederate army. There was no time to organize a stand, not time to set up a rearguard. Whole regiments were cut off, Bragg's headquarters went, the yard was filled with shouting madmen before his staff could get out of the building, he himself missed capture by an eyelash. "Here's your commander!" he cried, riding among the fugitives. "Here's your jackass," they answered, threw down their muskets and ran twice as fast."

[Meh]

The "Red Badge of Courage" was civil war time period right?

Anyway that was good one.

[The Lurker]

On the subject of good Civil War period books, The Guns of the South is a good book that I'm reading right now. It's alternate history, but I still learned a lot of things about the Civil War that I didn't know before reading it.

[watermelonnose]

I have to disagree with you. I don't believe your interpretation of the constitution is the correct one. The debate continues between the Federalists and the anti-Federalists. There are always more sides to the story, but I would rather not argue them here.

This link will take you to an essay about Lincoln. You may find enlightening or maybe not make sure you follow the reference links too.

http://www.lneilsmith.com/abelenin.html