Denominational discussion (split from CR forum)

[Surly]

Not as far as you think.

J, who if you think he's not Jesus, you're just fooling yourself, is trying to set himself up as a god.

If that's not a CRB, I'd like to know what is.

Well he picked a good place to do it, didn't he? Kwor, home of the strongest faith on that island... and definitely one of the strongest in the world. Even if it is much weaker now than it was...

Just leave him, he'll be dealt with if he doesn't keep quiet.

[Schme]

but do Muslims recognise Jesus as a precursors to Mohammad?

Yes. He was the last prophet before Mohammed.

I doubt they recognise him as God Himself, which to me says that they don't agree it's the same religion. Christians would say the Jewish God is the same, but Jews would not say the same of Jesus.

Jesus was not (according to Christian scripture) god. He was the son of god.

Muslims (and most jews) consider him a prophet, but not the messiah or the son of god.

A very holy prophet, but not the flesh and blood.

Just an interesting fact, in the holy Qu'ran, it says that, when Jesus was nailed to the cross, he did not die upon it, but rather ascended directly to heaven, living.


[/quote]
In light of that I'd say that although they all seem similar at face value, the particular details of each one make them unique and fundamentally different.[/quote]

The reason Christianity becomes so complicated (well, a large one anyway) is because there are so many prophets, saints and apostles, who complicate the whole works, by giving much more varity of things to interprit (or misinterprit)

The same with Judaism.

However, all three religions are based on the same Judaic holy texts, and so they are all in fact worshiping the same god, for if it was not the same god, how could you incorperate pieces from other religions into it?

[Schme]

Of course, if you come from Spain, isn't Jesus a common name?

I know a person whose coach from the Spanish airport to the hotel was driven by Jesus, how's that for service?

Jesus is a very common name throughout the world. However, in among hispanic peoples, when a man is given the name Jesus (that is to say, when you are not reffering to the son of god arcoding to the christian scripture) it is usually prounounced Esus.

I knew I guy from Ecuador named Esus.

[Schme]

I'll try to reply to everyone here. I like giving unsolicited responses.

. The object of each of these faiths is indeed the true and living God. Where these three religions differ is in the way tbelieve they are to worship God.

Not entirely. There's quite a bit more to it than that.

The Christian faith revolves around Jesus, born in Bethlehem, of Mary, who married Joseph. This same Jesus, when he grew up, claimed to be God I and the Father are one (John 10 v 30-33) and the Jews of the days considered it blasphemy, because they did not recognise him as God.

Jesus only claimed to be the son of god, or god incarnate, the result of God's one night stand with Mary.

He never portrayed himself as god (although he did portray himself as devine).

Also, for christians, Jesus was the saviour, whereas jews did not (and do not) believe he was the messiah, and that the messiah is yet to come.

[/quote]

I'll stop now, but if anyone wants to know more, I can go on.

[/quote]

Please do.

[/quote]
Incidentally, did you know that Jesus is the Greek version of the Hebrew name Joshua?[/quote]

That is very interesting.

And then Mohammed came along a few centuries later, and the idea was that yeah, Jesus was a great prophet, but Allah spoke directly to Mohammed and gave him the words of the Q'ran. The idea is that just as Christianity was the "next step" after Judaism, so Islam was the "next step" after Christianity.

Well, not exactly. God supposedly spoke directly to Jesus aswell.

However, Mohammed was the LAST profit, and so, not only is his word an update of the direct word of god, but it is the final version, the final step. (In theory)

But yes, pretty much what you said.

The line of major Judaic/Christian/Islamic prophets:

Abraham (Ibrahim)starts Judaism(aswell as giving birth to the son who would begin the judaic people, and another son who would be the first of the people who would later become the first muslims).

Moses continues judaism.

Jesus gives rise to christianity.

Mohammed, the last prophet, writes the final chapter, so to speak (founds Islam)

Obviously Christians weren't a fan, just as Jews weren't a fan of Christianity. But there you have it.

Well, the problems did not really start due to religious belief, so much as tribal warfare.

In the Holy Qu'ran, it says (and I'm paraphrasing here) "You must fight the jews and christians to save your wifes and children, to keep the people of god from being washed away by the sea......" et cetra et cetra. However, this was written at a time when warfare between a number of christian, jewish and muslim tribes was perticularly bad.

Earlier on (or later, I cannot remember) in the Holy Qu'ran, it says that it does not matter weather your brother (meaning anyone) is jewish or christian, as you are brothers all the same, and you should help him.

[/quote]
(MAN do we get off topic here)[/quote]


Yes

but do Muslims recognise Jesus as a precursors to Mohammad?

Yes. He was the last prophet before Mohammed.

I doubt they recognise him as God Himself, which to me says that they don't agree it's the same religion. Christians would say the Jewish God is the same, but Jews would not say the same of Jesus.

Jesus was not (according to Christian scripture) god. He was the son of god.

Muslims (and most jews) consider him a prophet, but not the messiah or the son of god.

A very holy prophet, but not the flesh and blood.

Just an interesting fact, in the holy Qu'ran, it says that, when Jesus was nailed to the cross, he did not die upon it, but rather ascended directly to heaven, living.

In light of that I'd say that although they all seem similar at face value, the particular details of each one make them unique and fundamentally different.[/quote]

The reason Christianity becomes so complicated (well, a large one anyway) is because there are so many prophets, saints and apostles, who complicate the whole works, by giving much more varity of things to interprit (or misinterprit)

The same with Judaism.

However, all three religions are based on the same Judaic holy texts, and so they are all in fact worshiping the same god, for if it was not the same god, how could you incorperate pieces from other religions into it?[/quote]

[Solfius]

schme, Christian scripture teaches that Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father are both distinct entities, and at the same time God (meaning they're all forms of God, not distinct entities)

It's a hard point to grasp as it is totally paradoxical, but you'll have to take my word for it.

"the result of God's one night stand with Mary" - that's bordering on offensive....

[Surly]

On the contrary, it is Catholic Christianity that teaches that (and subsequently Protestant)... Arian Christianity preaches that Jesus was born of God, and must therefore be subordinate.

Just to muddy the waters...

[Schme]

Yes.

[Schme]

"the result of God's one night stand with Mary" - that's bordering on offensive....

I'm paraphrasing holy scripture. If you find that offensive, there's not much I can do sort of altering it, which I would find exetremly offensive.

And if you remember correctly, Mary, aswell as Joseph, were greatly honored to be chosen for this.

[Solfius]

On the contrary, it is Catholic Christianity that teaches that (and subsequently Protestant)... Arian Christianity preaches that Jesus was born of God, and must therefore be subordinate.

Just to muddy the waters...

I was hoping no one would bring up the various denominations

I come from an Church of England/Anglican background; I can't speak for the beliefs of other denominations

Schme, there are far better ways of putting it than a "one night stand" (not a phrase used in any version of the Bible I've come across). The fact there was no physical intercourse, just a baby appearing, doesn't really warrant such a sexually loaded phrase, paraphrasing or not.

[Sarah]

This forum is for capital rule breaches. If you want to discuss religion, do so in Non-Cantr Related Discussion.

And guys, even if your intention isn't to be offensive, just assume that people <i>will</i> find it offensive, and find better wording.

[Solfius]

I suggest a split to OT discussion

[Schme]

We didn't put it here! The moderator did!

[wichita]

Yay! Another rational religious discussion on the forums!

I love to talk religion. Anyone who would like to chat and have an honest conversation can feel free to PM me if you would like sometime.

So the concept of the Trinity came up. Yeah that's a confusing one for a lot of people. It's really spelled out in Christian scripture, though. 1 John 5 is my favorite chapter in looking for a concise explanation of who God is. I am amazed by the separate yet one nature of God, because it is modelled in quantum mechanics.

For those of you unfamiliar with quantum, subatomic particles assume specific ordered quantized states. The particles may assume no value in between those states, but may assume linear combinations of those states. In other words, if a particle can be in level A or level B it can also appear to be in a level halfway between A and B only by simulataneously being in both levels A and B. This is also typically presented as the paradox of Schroedinger's cat. If you look at the cat in a quantum box, the cat at any given moment in time can be alive and dead simulataneously. Schroedinger, de Broglie, Planck, and Einstein uncovered the working God through physics. Unfortunately, everyone loves Darwin...probably because it doesn't require as much LSD to understand natural selection.

And no, the three religions do not all worship the same God. Judaism and Christianity worship the same God, but Judeo-Christian doctrine prevents Allah from also being accepted. Christ said "...noone can enter the Kingdom of Heaven but through me." Later, the Holy Spirit (God the Helper) through the Apostles taught that if any doctrine contradicting their teachings was preached, the person responsible for it was a heretic and had to be rejected. So Christianity and Islam can not be mixed conservatively. To accept Christ as a mere prophet makes him a liar, invalidates his claim as diety, and invalidates the religion.

[Surly]

On the contrary, it is Catholic Christianity that teaches that (and subsequently Protestant)... Arian Christianity preaches that Jesus was born of God, and must therefore be subordinate.

Just to muddy the waters...

I was hoping no one would bring up the various denominations

I come from an Church of England/Anglican background; I can't speak for the beliefs of other denominations

Sorry... I am a medieval history student, and the various denominations play a large part in the period. Hence I found it relevant to post that in response to the all encompassing statement of "Christianity".

Actually quite fascinating that the Roman Emperors originally favoured Arianism and refuted Catholicism as heresy.

That all changed. And on topic... A German pope? And a traditionalist... not the best choice in my opinion. WHat does everyone else think?

[Schme]

As I said, some say that they are not in fact worshiping the same god, and many preach that what others say is heresy to hold onto there power.

"Jesus son of god" just as one might call themselves a son of Mao or someone who is not there brother a brother. So, son=servant.

And Jesus was (in theory) the one way to god, but that was when Mohammed was not yet born. The one way to god "At the time".

I do not deny that these faiths go off into there own thing, but Mohammed was (in supposition) the messenger from the same god.

Most religious leaders disagree with you, Witchita, aswell as many people who study religious text.

It's not hard to put together, to my mind.

But then again, I don't at all understand your equating physics with devinity, so perhaps I'm lost here.