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Zanthos wrote:Dee wrote:Well, okay, a belief. But I believe it to be a fact. But it's my belief.. Whatever.
Well.. Can someone explain to me why you think he IS God's son?
It has to do with the immaculate conception, being that god (being the father) put the baby in mary's womb.
Now, by modern science terminology, she was a surrogate mother, because im pretty sure god didnt knock her up.
I have no words to say. I mean, really, if that's your belief then I respect it and keep my mouth shut. 
Was Jesus God?
Q: Was Jesus God?
A: Absolutely. And He still is God. I am always surprised when people say that "Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus is God." Actually it says it in many, many places. The apostles say it. Jesus says it about Himself. It is said by the Jews and the Romans who killed Christ. And it is said in many different ways. It is said in words. It is said in actions (like falling down in worship). It is said in miracles. Here are just a few of the Scriptures that show that Jesus is God (complete deity, coequal with the Father, and one with the Father).
Hebrews 1:1-3 says "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:" You and I would know absolutely nothing about this God unless He told us. Ours is a God who speaks. He speaks to us out of the silence of eternity. The Bible is the story of God’s self-disclosure. In times past God spoke through prophets, then later through His Son who is "the exact representation of God's being."
The Scripture clearly affirms that Jesus is God. John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Verse 14 makes the identity of the Word clear: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." The Word who "was God" (v. 1) "became flesh" in verse 14. Imagine a line. Everything below the line represents what we can perceive with our senses -- what we can understand and identify with our eyes, with our logic, with our test tubes. Everything above the line represents everything that we cannot perceive with our senses. The God above the line entered below the line of sense and perception, so that we could perceive Him with our senses. God chose to become a cockroach to communicate with cockroaches. John 1:18 says, "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
This creates a situation that is without parallel in world religions. If I awoke to read the morning paper and I read "It has now been conclusively proven that nobody by the name of Confucius ever lived." It wouldn’t change a thing. The essence of the Confucius faith is found in the teachings. If I awoke to read the morning paper and it read "It has now been conclusively proven that nobody by the name of Buddha ever lived." It wouldn’t change a thing. The essence of the Buddhist faith is found in its teachings.
But if it was conclusively proven that Jesus Christ never lived, Christianity would collapse. The essence of the Christian faith is found in the person of Jesus. The teaching of Jesus is not really unique, except in the way Jesus talked about Himself:
* I and my Father are one (John 10:30).
* He that has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:7-9).
* Before Abraham was "I am" (John 8:58 ). "I am" was the covenant name for God in the Old Testament (Yahweh). The Jews understood the significance of this statement, because they picked up stones to stone him for blasphemy (John 8:59).
Remember Jesus was crucified because of blasphemy: "Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God." (John 5:18 ).
None of the prophets ever spoke like this. The prophets said, "Turn to the Lord and He will heal you." Jesus said, "Come unto me and I will give you rest." The prophets said, "Repent and God will forgive you." Jesus said, "I forgive your sins" (Matthew 9:2). And when someone objected and said, "Only God can forgive sins." Jesus in essence replied, "Yes, that’s quite right." All through the gospels, Jesus is taking the place of God.
Among all of the religious leaders of all time Jesus is unique. Muhammad never made any such claims. Buddha never made any such claims. Confucius never made any such claims.
Now there are those who would want to say, "I believe that Jesus is the founder of one of the world’s great religions. I believe that he was a great teacher, but this business about Jesus being God I just cannot buy." I can understand that reasoning, but that tells me that the person has not really thought clearly about what Jesus has said. I don’t think Jesus has left us that option. This business about being a good teacher – He wasn’t a good teacher at all if He wasn’t what He said He was.
There are many positions you can take with such extravagant claims:
1. Of course he wasn’t God, but He thought He was. – I suppose there are many people in the Washington, D.C. area who think they are God, but we don’t worship them, we pity them. Jesus didn’t seem, or act, or sound like a lunatic.
2. Of course he wasn’t God and he knew he wasn’t God, but he claimed to be. – Well, if that’s the case then you ought to have nothing to do with him, because he’s the biggest fraud that ever lived. Let’s be rid of him once and for all. Don’t hang around the church. If you do you are guilty of purveying massive error -- a massive world wide deception.
3. He really was who He claimed to be. – If this is true, the conception of Mary’s child is the single most significant thing that ever happened upon the face of the earth. Peter said, "For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty." (2 Peter 1:16). The incarnation of Christ is the great event that split the centuries in two.
There are many other places that clearly teach Jesus' deity:
Notice the exchange of titles in the story of the birth of Jesus in Luke 2:8-11:
And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.(John 20:26-28 ).
Paul wrote: For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 9:3-5).
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (Philippians 2:5-6).
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; (Titus 2:11-13).
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8 ).
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: (2 Peter 1:1). The same grammatical construction appears in verse 11, where it is obvious that the titles there (Lord and Savior) apply to Christ.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1 John 5:20).
If you have 30 seconds with a Jehovah Witness (who does not believe that Jesus is God) then have them turn to Revelation 1:8: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." A Jehovah Witness will tell you that this verse refers to God the Father, the God of the Old Testament. So God is the Alpha and Omega. Alpha and omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. God is the Beginning and End of all things.
Now have your JW friend turn to Revelation 22:13: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. To whom does this verse refer? Well, a Jehovah Witness will tell you it must refer to God the Father, since He is called the Alpha and Omega in Revelation 1:8. (Of course in verse 15 the speaker calls himself "Jesus," but perhaps there was a shift in speakers between verse 13 and 15. We will give the Jehovah Witness the benefit of the doubt.) Notice that the person who is the Alpha and Omega is also the First and the Last. So from a Jehovah Witness point of view: God = Alpha and Omega = First and Last.
Now turn to Revelation 1:17-18. John is writing about his vision and he says, When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hell." Here are the connections that we have seen so far: God = Alpha and Omega = First and Last = one who was dead and now alive! When did God die? The only answer is: "in Jesus." The inescapable conclusion is that Jesus is God!
deadboy wrote:Thank you Elros. Yes, as far as I know, from the ten years that I was a stout Christian, all of my statements coincide with what the bible teaches.
4.Jesus teaches that vanity and pride are sins. He also teaches that in order to have no pride good acts must be done in private. ie. he teaches this about prayer.
Missy wrote:Mary was a lady of the night. Don't you people watch tv?
SekoETC wrote:Well said Elros.
Zanthos wrote:I guess Doug R sums it up nicely.
Personally, I find it borderline impossible to reconsile all religions and have a happy medium. I am actually studying Pragmatism in college now, and i believe it was William James who said 'if we go deep enough, all religions are fundementally the same' (paraphrasing) But he also then goes on to say tha going this deep really leaves nothing left of the religion itself. I have respect for arabs and hebrews, i mean, we all worship the same god, right?
If i understand this right (and please correct me if im wrong Dee) the muslums believe Jesus to be a prophet, not the son of god {and that he didn't ascend directly to heaven when he died to be seated at the right hand of the father}. this is biggest difference between christianity and islam. (pretty much the same difference there is between christianity and judiasm, except the hebrews had jesus killed)
1.To begin with, we must make the assumption that God exists, and that for Jesus to be the son of God he must be like God in all ways, otherwise he couldn't be a true son of God
2.God is the source of all goodness
3.Something that is good can have no evil or sin in it whatsoever, nor commit any evil or sin
4.Jesus teaches that vanity and pride are sins. He also teaches that in order to have no pride good acts must be done in private. ie. he teaches this about prayer.
5.God lets humans contemplate his existance, and him creating the earth
6.In order to have no pride he must have done this private to us, and make certain that we didn't know of his good acts, rather than letting us contemplate it and telling our ancestors
7.Therefore God must have been guilty of the sin of Pride, proved by the fact that he lets us worship him rather than being modest. A contradiction
8.Therefore the only logical explanation, if God must exist, is that Pride is not a sin.
9.However, Jesus teaches that it is a sin, and to be modest is virtuous, he therefore must be telling a lie.
10.Something that is God has no use for falsehoods, and must detest them as they involve the covering up of truths, in which something purely good must love
11.Therefore Jesus could not have been a God, nor the son of God
Elros wrote:Missy wrote:Mary was a lady of the night. Don't you people watch tv?
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