Religion

[Elros]

I would definetly say "No". In fact mortals cannot do "anything" without divine help. If God did not allow you to take another breath then you wouldn't. Everything that happens is permited to happen by God(divine helper).
So no they can not do supernatural or natural things without Gods(the creators) help or consent.

[Hannibal The Imbecile 15]

I wouldn't go quite that far.

[deadboy]

Could a mortal human being, withouth divine help, for example, turn a river to blood or sticks to snake?

Look, I'm christian but I find this very naive, because the simple answer is yes, magicians do this sort of thing all the time and all you need to turn a river to blood is a whole lot of dye, or the sunset setting just right so that it makes the water seem red. There are many ways that the miracles could have been done, and it is stupid to think that there isn't. The thing that does it for me is that although these things could have been faked, I do not think they were.

Also, on the matter of the bible, I do not like the way the churches have used christianity, particularly the romans, often as a propaganda tool, and so I do not think that every book in there was inspired by god, and that the ones that made it in were the right ones to let in as the romans chose which ones to leave in as a way of making sure that they got across the right message they wanted to get across. I do however think that personally those people were inspired by seeing the events, to write the books, but not in anyway inspired whilst writing the books, which I think is where much confusion comes from.

[Elros]

and that the ones that made it in were the right ones to let in as the romans chose which ones to leave in as a way of making sure that they got across the right message they wanted to get across.

Ok first of all just let me clarify that I am NOT a catholic. I do not agree with them in almost every aspect. But the point I wanted to make is that it was not the Romans that chose what books were alowed into the Bible. If you read Bible history, it was in fact several different groups of people alomg the way that added to the Bible. In the end the final compilation of the books we have now was completed in 1611 by the group of men working under King Jame's permission to write the "more perfect translation" as they called it. However, there had been previous compilations such as the "Bear Bible" and the "Great Bible" and a few others. Those copies being written by a Spanish Monk who got converted into christianity, and the other one with some help from Martin Luther(who greatly opposed the catholic church).

[deadboy]

and that the ones that made it in were the right ones to let in as the romans chose which ones to leave in as a way of making sure that they got across the right message they wanted to get across.

. In the end the final compilation of the books we have now was completed in 1611 by the group of men working under King Jame's permission to write the "more perfect translation" as they called it. [quote]

Think about what you just said, this is a period of over 1500 years, an almost unimaginable amount of time to the human mind in terms of human history (It is probably about a third of it anyway). During this time it is clear that much is going to become even more confused in the interpreting, almost all of the original books would have rotted away, and therefore they could only base it upon the roman catholic bible anyhow, as they were too far removed from the events to write anything other than it. And so, in a gist, they are never going to remove the confusion of the bible

[Elros]

Think about what you just said, this is a period of over 1500 years, an almost unimaginable amount of time to the human mind in terms of human history (It is probably about a third of it anyway). During this time it is clear that much is going to become even more confused in the interpreting, almost all of the original books would have rotted away

First of all let me just say that like many other things, you have to have some faith to believe something. God said that he would preserve his Word forever, and I believe that. I do NOT believe that the God who created the entire universe in 6 days could not preserve his own Word(the Bible).

therefore they could only base it upon the roman catholic bible anyhow, as they were too far removed from the events to write anything other than it.

Okay, once again someone needs to study on Bible History before trying to make statments about it. The KJV was translated from Greek, Hebrew, and some Latin. The Latin part was translated from the Bible that the Spanish monk(who had become a christian) I told you about had translated. The translators of the KJV as well as the other Bibles that I have talked about despised the Catholic Bible because of the same reasons that you have said before. It was used as propoganda to give more power to the roman Catholic Church. So the translators translated the bibles because they did not agree that the cathlolic bible was God's true word, and rightfully so. Actually many of the Bible translators before the King James Version translators(because they had the King's protection) had to flee to other contries and translate the bible in secret because the Catholic church was trying to kill them for it. So before you say that the Bible was written from the Roman Catholic Translation you might want to check again.

[Nakranoth]

I would definetly say "No". In fact mortals cannot do "anything" without divine help. If God did not allow you to take another breath then you wouldn't. Everything that happens is permited to happen by God(divine helper).
So no they can not do supernatural or natural things without Gods(the creators) help or consent.

Well, if God is "helping" your every action, then where is your free will? I didn't ask if we needed permisson, I asked if we needed intervention.

[Mafia Salad]

If we ignore God's presence and sustenance in everyday life, then I'd say human's can perform illusions without direct supernatural help, but actual miracles such as turning water into actual blood with complex cells and whatnot would require supernatural aid either from God or demonic forces.

When you talk about the church using Christianity as a propaganda tool, I'll agree with you to an extent, but never to an extent of altering scripture. I believe in an active and ever-present Holy Spirit holding the truth of scripture intact & whole. Every book in the New Testament (excluding Third John) was quoted as scripture in letters from the Church leaders by the second century. The 27 books we know as the New Testament were widely established and accepted as inspired text by the beginning of the fourth century. A few were debated over, some were accepted as canonical other rejected, and I believe that the Holy spirit guided the church leaders in their decisions to establish a doctrine for the future of the church.

[Nakranoth]

If we ignore God's presence and sustenance in everyday life, then I'd say human's can perform illusions without direct supernatural help, but actual miracles such as turning water into actual blood with complex cells and whatnot would require supernatural aid either from God or demonic forces.

This is to say that supernatural power is not solely Godly granted... which would infer there being more than one diety with god simply being the greatest among them.

[Elros]

I would definetly say "No". In fact mortals cannot do "anything" without divine help. If God did not allow you to take another breath then you wouldn't. Everything that happens is permited to happen by God(divine helper).
So no they can not do supernatural or natural things without Gods(the creators) help or consent.

Well, if God is "helping" your every action, then where is your free will? I didn't ask if we needed permisson, I asked if we needed intervention.

I don't really know where you are trying to go with this, but I will play along. So my answer is "Yes" you do need divine intervention to perform supernatural abilities. When I say that, I really mean to perform them, not just make it look like you did(modern-day magicians). However that intervention may not always be divine(from God), it could also come from another spritual being(the devil). God said that the Devil is the prince of this world, and he does have power to do supernatural things at this time. However in the future God will remove that power from him and chain him hand and foot and cast him into the Lake of Fire forever.

[Elros]

If we ignore God's presence and sustenance in everyday life, then I'd say human's can perform illusions without direct supernatural help, but actual miracles such as turning water into actual blood with complex cells and whatnot would require supernatural aid either from God or demonic forces.

This is to say that supernatural power is not solely Godly granted... which would infer there being more than one diety with god simply being the greatest among them.

Um.... yes it is very clear that there are more spritual forces that can perform supernatural feats in the Bible. However, they are not "Deity" as you call it, and they are not other Gods. God created the Devil(used to be Lucifer the charbim) and all of his demons(used to be angels). Lucifer was 2nd in command in heaven, and only God was over him. However Lucifer thought that he could overthrow God, and rallied many angels toegther to help him. When this happened God cast Lucifer and the fallen angels down to the earth where they would live and have dominion. However as I said earlier, in the future they will be stripped of their power and cast into the Lake of Fire(found in the book revelation). So yes there are other spiritual forces, but they are not Divine, they are not Deity, and they are not Gods.

[Nakranoth]

Well, it's actually ending up going in a diffrent direction than I expected... But yes, I'm quite familiar with the fall of Satan (which may/may not be Lucifer if you look into it). But this does mean that God released evil upon the world, and thus man did not create it... but we are still punished for it. Correct?
*edit* Also keep in mind that Lucifer was designed as the accuser of mankind... it's only doing what God made it to do... Which brings rise to the question: Did God inadvertantly cause evil (and thus not be omnipotent), was evil created on porpose (and thus God is the root of all evil), or does evil not exist (and thus we are not punished for it)?

[Elros]

Well, it's actually ending up going in a diffrent direction than I expected... But yes, I'm quite familiar with the fall of Satan (which may/may not be Lucifer if you look into it). But this does mean that God released evil upon the world, and thus man did not create it... but we are still punished for it. Correct?
*edit* Also keep in mind that Lucifer was designed as the accuser of mankind... it's only doing what God made it to do... Which brings rise to the question: Did God inadvertantly cause evil (and thus not be omnipotent), was evil created on porpose (and thus God is the root of all evil), or does evil not exist (and thus we are not punished for it)?

These questions are very simple and I am surprised that you do not know the answers to them, but I guess you must not really read the Bible so that would explain why. So here are the answers:

Question 1: But this does mean that God released evil upon the world, and thus man did not create it... but we are still punished for it. Correct?

Answer 1: Man is punished for the sin that he personally commits. However sin entered into mans heart when Adam and Eve rebelled against Gods commandments and ate from the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". So with that said, man brought sin onto man. God didn't do it.


Question 2: Also keep in mind that Lucifer was designed as the accuser of mankind... it's only doing what God made it to do... Which brings rise to the question: Did God inadvertantly cause evil (and thus not be omnipotent)?

Answer 2: You are very mistaken when you say that Lucifer was designed to be the accuser of mankind. God designed Lucifer to be a rightoues servant to him in heaven. God gave Lucifer power over all the other angels. Lucifer was the "son of the morning" as the Bible calls him. He was an angel of light, but he had a free-will, and he chose to do evil as did many of the angels that followed him. Below is a short passage about Lucifer from the Bible:

Isaiah 14:
12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17. That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18. All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20. Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

[Nakranoth]

Answer 1: Man is punished for the sin that he personally commits. However sin entered into mans heart when Adam and Eve rebelled against Gods commandments and ate from the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil". So with that said, man brought sin onto man. God didn't do it.

But then even since elementry school, we lesser mortals have been able to deduce that mankind would inevitably lapse into this state... that some day we would eat of the fruit, and have understanding of good and evil... and remember it's only evil you you know what evil is. (nothing an infact can do is evil)

Answer 2: You are very mistaken when you say that Lucifer was designed to be the accuser of mankind. God designed Lucifer to be a rightoues servant to him in heaven. God gave Lucifer power over all the other angels. Lucifer was the "son of the morning" as the Bible calls him. He was an angel of light, but he had a free-will, and he chose to do evil as did many of the angels that followed him. Below is a short passage about Lucifer from the Bible:

Isaiah 14:
12. How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13. For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

17. That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

18. All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.

19. But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.

20. Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Okay, then was it accidental that Lucifer is the way it is? If yes, then God is not Omnipotent. If No, then God designed Evil or Evil does not truly exist.
I've been told before that God did not create evil because evil is simply the lack of God's presence... but this too goes against the precept that God is omnipresent.

*edit* By the way, It's great to actually have someone intelligent enough to argue with on theology. Hope you can find a logically sound loophole somewhere in my logic... I couldn't... that's why I'm not Christian any more.

[Elros]

*smiles* Well I am glad that you are happy to have someone to argue with.

Let me say this. Free Will is a very complex thing. If there was no such thing as evil, then there would be no "true" Free Will. Everyone would have to do right, and even if they wanted to, they couldn't do wrong. That would take away the whole aspect of people having free-will. We would be like robots, meaning that there would only be one path to take, and we could only do right all the time and no one could do wrong. God however chose to give man a free will, and allow him to chose either Good or Evil. Where did evil itself come from? I really can't answer that, however it did not come from God according to the Bible. It is possible that God allowed evil to come so that people would have a true free will.

Here are some points on the subject that I copied from another source just to save me the time of finding all of the following verses:

Where did evil come from?

God is the Creator of all things and upholds, directs, and governs all creatures, actions, and things from the greatest to the least. This is called the doctrine of providence. See Hebrews 1:3; Daniel 4:34-35; Psalm 135: 6; Acts 17:25-26,28; Job 38; 39; 40; 41; Matthew 10:29-31; Genesis 45:7; Proverbs 15:3; Psalm 103:19; 104:24; 145:17; Isaiah 45:7; Romans 13:1.

God's providence extends even to the first fall of man. See Romans 11:32-34; 2 Samuel 24:1; 1 Chronicles 21:1; 1 Kings 22:22-23; 1 Chronicles 10:4,13-14; 2 Samuel 16:10; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28.

God by His providence created angels and permitted some of the angels, willfully and irrecoverably, to fall into sin and damnation. See Jude 6; 2 Peter 2:4; Hebrews 2:16; John 8:44.

God did not create evil, but did create creatures who would do evil. Evil is not independent of God but dependent on God and His activity in the world. It is controlled by God. See Proverbs 16:4; John 1:3; Romans 9:20-23; 11:36.

The sinfulness proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who being most holy and righteous, cannot be the author or approver of sin. See James 1:13-14,17; 1 John 2:16; Psalm 50:21.

Therefore, what this means is that God is not evil but good, BUT God created, directed, and upheld creatures that did evil without Himself being evil.

Has evil always existed?

Evil has NOT always existed, because there was a time before the creation of angels and man. Genesis 1; John 1:1-3.

Here is the definitions of Omnipotent, and if God had allowed evil, then it would not in any way break one of the following definitions of Omnipotent. So God can allow evil and still be Omnipotent.

Omnipotent:
1. almighty or infinite in power, as God.
2. having very great or unlimited authority or power.
3. an omnipotent being.
4. the Omnipotent, God.

Let me just finish with this: God created the opportunity for evil, and free creatures made evil exist.