What can God never see?

[saztronic]

Jesus was cool. It's his followers I can't stand.

[playerslayer666]

in the end we can all agree that the bible and religion helped create social order. that and a basic concept of right and wrong. that's about it. nothing else about the bible can actually be proven.

ironicly i do beleive that all bibles mention the same unknown creator of life at one point or another. all the bibles of the world talk about prophets and sons of GOD.....so why worship a prophet but not god himself? kind of stupid don't you think?

[Lyd]

LOL Saztronic!

[Sekar]

The problem with christianity is the concept of hell. It's a giant scare tactic that is diabolical.

[Chris]

in the end we can all agree that the bible and religion helped create social order. that and a basic concept of right and wrong.

I don't agree. Humans are social animals. There is ancient archaelogical evidence of group life and people helping each other. There are lots of skeletons of men and women who had crippling injuries and yet survived many years afterwards. That would be possible only through the help of a group. There are also many other social species that have some rudimentary rules for group life. They all have defined behaviors for what makes a good group member, and they punish those who are not. These standards don't require much cognitive capacity; bees and ants are social species that live in groups and enforce rules for group living.

The first evidence for religion in humans is about 40-80k years old: burying people with personal possessions and cave art thought to be hunting magic. That is relatively recent to a paleontologist.

[DylPickle]

in the end we can all agree that the bible and religion helped create social order. that and a basic concept of right and wrong.

I don't agree. Humans are social animals. There is ancient archaelogical evidence of group life and people helping each other. There are lots of skeletons of men and women who had crippling injuries and yet survived many years afterwards. That would be possible only through the help of a group. There are also many other social species that have some rudimentary rules for group life. They all have defined behaviors for what makes a good group member, and they punish those who are not. These standards don't require much cognitive capacity; bees and ants are social species that live in groups and enforce rules for group living.

The first evidence for religion in humans is about 40-80k years old: burying people with personal possessions and cave art thought to be hunting magic. That is relatively recent to a paleontologist.

Basic social-anthropology. *high five*

I actually find a lot of people tend to underestimate pre-bible-era human intelligence.

[Voltenion]

Yes, the group works out fine. They help each other out...But when other groups appear?
It is that peace that "Jesus" talked about. With everyone, every group. Not just inside it. But anyway I have to agree with Saz.
God is perfect, people are dumb. How can so many wars come from a book that says loud and clear "YOU SHALL NOT KILL" ?

Next: Yeh, what proves to all historians who actually the study the thing is the difference between the texts. In Egipt you can see the storys they talk about in those piramids and all, I think, and all writen down. By those who knew how to write. It's all programmed. Now unless many people from Israel and such decided to join up and create this "story", or maybe they all got drunk and in their wasted sleep and dreamed about the same? Or...maybe the differences between the texts, the point of views in people. The facts written down. The strange reality they are different but all talk about this man doing some strange wicked things...

And Jesus did die in your benefit. The world wouldn't have a strict based distinction about good and evil if it wasn't for Christianity to become a religion for the knowned world. These ideas Jesus preached about where good for everyone. People thought about them and some, just some, actually took it for real. Now why would those other gods let christianity grow so much if it's not real?! Think about it. Things happen there. Why does it keep getting attacked? Because it's real! The costant hate for it just proves it. Why is it growing so much? God is real.

And yes, AC. God does suffer for religion's mistakes. And if you think about it, there's nothing wrong in the bible, I mean it tell no one to do anything wrong. But you said you know people abused by "Christians"? Just think, if they don't do what the bible says, they aren't christians.

Guess it's all for today...Now I need some sleep

[DylPickle]

And Jesus did die in your benefit. The world wouldn't have a strict based distinction about good and evil if it wasn't for Christianity to become a religion for the knowned world.

The notion that the founding of Christianity was the origin of morality is bogus, absurd, and overall one of the most pathetic of blind beliefs. Lectures on right and wrong can be dated back to the earliest age of writings (which, fyi, does not include the bible. The bible was very late). You could also go and look at regions outside of Europe. Native American tribes, for instance. They knew the difference between good and evil, without any bibles or an omnipotent God. Funny how fast the bible wielding men from across the ocean happily gave them blankets infected with smallpox, isn't it?

The bible was written by people, and people alone. There was no supernatural being hacking into the authors' brains through some divine channels.

Also, if god was so perfect, he wouldn't have had to write a new testament.

[formerly known as hf]

Thanks Dyl, you put that much more nicely than I would have done.

Christianity does not have the sole, nor the earliest claim to defining morality.

[Voltenion]

Not the origin but the gateway. Yes other religions had morality in them too, in fact almost all of them. But none of them went so far like Christianity. Imagine what the world could be if people would have take Christianity for real? EVEN IF GOD DOESN'T EXIST!! Just imagine...When we discovered africa, if those people had the bible's morality, what they could have had, instead of making them slaves and exploring their world so that in this future they would be poor and still in recover, they would have helped them. Make good trades without violence. Just imagine, maybe there wouldn't be world hunger. Peace, really peace. In fact it cracks me up, you guys even if you don't believe in God you should admire a man who gave his life a away (with lots of pain) for a greater world. So not the origin, but the gate. Not the origin because people by themselfs can understand they are doing something wrong. But unless they actually know there's something bad coming out of it, they won't stop doing it.

Funny how fast the bible wielding men from across the ocean happily gave them blankets infected with smallpox, isn't it?

And again: not the bible but people.

Also, if god was so perfect, he wouldn't have had to write a new testament

God noticed he was being to harsh on this silly race who cant follow some simple rules. He had to change them to an easier level, which is what Jesus did. The new testment is just a smoothing of things. In the old testament almost everything was a sin... So the new testament comes with "easier rules" and a cool expresso for forgiveness...

[formerly known as hf]

Ok...

Not the origin but the gateway. Yes other religions had morality in them too, in fact almost all of them. But none of them went so far like Christianity.

Nonsense. Hinduism, to pick just one of many examples, has a strict ethical and social code. It was around long, long before Christianity. And taking it far? Christianity's ethics are fairly lax in comparison to, say, certain forms of Buddhism.

Just imagine...When we discovered africa,

Sorry, have to stop you briefly. It was there before 'we' invaded, hardly a discovery. Fuck, humans came from there originally, as did some of the precursors to your religion. And it's spelt Africa...

if those people had the bible's morality, what they could have had, instead of making them slaves and exploring their world so that in this future they would be poor and still in recover, they would have helped them. Make good trades without violence.

Which neatly overlooks that almost all slave runners were Christian (if only by default) - fat lot of good Christian morality did there... Also, forced conversion, lead by Chritian zealots (sorry, missionaries) was often part of the slave-making process. Abolitionists was largely on abstract ethical notions, although some Christians did join. To say Christianity is somehow fundamentally anti-slavery is, well, wrong.

Just imagine, maybe there wouldn't be world hunger. Peace, really peace.

Which also neatly ignores that the vast majority of conflict has had religious elements perpetuating it, if not originating it.

In fact it cracks me up, you guys even if you don't believe in God you should admire a man who gave his life a away (with lots of pain) for a greater world.

Why do people keep saying this as if it's irrefutable, undebateable fact. Had it drilled into your head for so long 'Jesus is our saviour' that you can't even begin to imagine how people could think otherwise? Maybe, just maybe, he didn't exist! There was not 'dying for our sins' let alone any supernatural resurrection. I admire Jesus as much as I admire the similarly fictional Harry Potter. Fuck all, in fact, I don't just not admire these story, I detest them - they're similarly badly written, shit stories, who have had disproportionatly large effects on the society in which I live.

[Chris]

When we discovered africa, if those people had the bible's morality, what they could have had, instead of making them slaves and exploring their world so that in this future they would be poor and still in recover, they would have helped them.

Read Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel for an explanation of why some nations prospered and dominated the world whereas other nations lagged behind and were overwhelmed. It has nothing to do with the superior/inferior virtue or intelligence of the people involved. It's all about geography, the availability of plants and animals that could be easily domesticated, the labor that those domesticated species freed up, and the immunities built up from living in close proximity to domesticated animals.

In fact it cracks me up, you guys even if you don't believe in God you should admire a man who gave his life a away (with lots of pain) for a greater world.

Why did Jesus have to give up his life? Because his father was a bloodthirsty god who couldn't forgive without a human sacrifice. Being so far removed in time, most modern Christians may not understand, but the ancient Hebrews used animal sacrifices to atone for the sins of people. The story of Abraham and Isaac may suggest that the Hebrews used to engage in human sacrifice (like other peoples in the region), but there was a change to animal sacrifice as a symbolic substitute. I don't see how going back to real human sacrifice, a la Jesus on the cross, is anything less than barbaric.

Funny how fast the bible wielding men from across the ocean happily gave them blankets infected with smallpox, isn't it?

And again: not the bible but people.

How is an idea's suitability for guiding human life judged? By looking at the people who are inspired by that idea. We judge a religion by its adherents' actions because that is what the religion's real world consequences are.

Also, if god was so perfect, he wouldn't have had to write a new testament

God noticed he was being to harsh on this silly race who cant follow some simple rules. He had to change them to an easier level, which is what Jesus did. The new testment is just a smoothing of things. In the old testament almost everything was a sin... So the new testament comes with "easier rules" and a cool expresso for forgiveness...

The New Testament is not a minor change. It's a huge change. It goes from a law-focused, action-focused theology to a theology that focuses on beliefs and inner character. You can debate the merits of the two approaches, but the change was not just relaxing the laws.

[SekoETC]

The Old Testament was written by several people during a long time span, including several prophesies about the coming Messiah. So why would a group of people suddenly agree to make up a fictional person from scratch, write stories about this person and manage to convince a rapidly growing number of people with no proof save for made up stories? It's easier to believe that it was based on at least something, an influential speaker, but I read that there is no mention of Jesus outside the Bible. Occasionally researchers discover mentions of some other person that was in the Bible that they had previously assumed to be fictional and they are surprised of how many details are accurate.

My mom said that Odin and gods like that are also real. That would explain a lot. Modern people try to deny the existance of spirits altogether but it would explain a lot if there were spirits. The thing about Christianity just is that there is only one real God which manifests himself as the
Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, which have been there forever, while the other spirits would be created beings and thus of limited power. Before the creation of humans the earth was ruled by spirits (angels) but when some of them tried to act too cocky, God created a weaker race that would create less trouble. Judging from the Book of Revelation God is going to end the game eventually, but I would assume that things would get a lot less interesting then. It's a big scale society simulator. God could choose to truncate all the tables or give loads of items to his followers but having actors that have free will creates far more drama. God will pull the plug when he has gotten enough of the bullshit that people do to each other and the nature.

[Antichrist_Online]

Why are my Gods any less real or powerful than your great hemaphrodite, Seko? We have equal evidence for both, and at least mine don't have a contradictory text as a basis of their religion. Also though I admit alot of wack-jobs follow my religion there are considerably more christian or muslim serial killers and lunatics than Asatru, Pagan or Satanist (True Satanism, which is more secular hedonism, that is, not the "The Devil made me do it").

On whether your book is right or is against the crimes I mean:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ ... tions.html
http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
http://www.evilbible.com/Slavery.htm (ooh not supporting slavery eh?)
Explain those then get back to me... And that site has alot more quotes, with their references for you to check in your own bibles...

[Chris]

God could choose to truncate all the tables or give loads of items to his followers but having actors that have free will creates far more drama. God will pull the plug when he has gotten enough of the bullshit that people do to each other and the nature.

Under the law, if you do something because you have been coerced (e.g., threatened with death, torture, etc.), then you are not considered to be acting of your own free will. Same should apply with theology. If you worship out of fear of punishment, then you aren't choosing freely.

The concept of Hell is so morally problematic that it has led to the recurring heresy of Universalism -- the doctrine that everyone will be saved because God is too loving to do otherwise. A Torture God reflects poorly on those who believe in him.