Thought or Rant of the day!!!

[Helmaroc]

I rant against moving sleepers. The guys who never, ever, ever, speak or emote, no matter what you do to them, but one day they just up and leave. I've even followed one around once, just to see, and we got to about three or four places before he died.

[MikeH]

I have to admit I'm feeling a bit disgruntled, and I don't want to make it worse.

But the "guilty until proven innocent" attitude towards players who may have broken a rule is a bit insulting.

I don't really read the forum, I mainly just play the game. So worrying about the rules or remembering the nuances of various rules really doesn't enter my mind, I simply try to RP the best I can and try to get wrapped up in the game.

When [CD Moderation - Please don't discuss open cases in the public forums, as you may cause other breaches to occur with information given], and now my account is locked. And because of that one issue, I can't access ANY of my characters, and I have no idea when that will change.

And I'm a little offended, too. I'm really trying to be flexible about it, but I can't help it, I'm annoyed. I really thought I was handling the odd situation as best I could, and now I've been punished for it.

Isn't there some better way to deal with issues like this? Locking my account feels like a punishment before the trial. Like it's assumed I'm guilty until I can prove my innocence.

[CD Edit by Anti]

[Antichrist_Online]

It's fairly standard to lock accounts when under investigation because of incidents in the past. The PD are just volunteers and are doing their best to do a good job, please be patient with them.

[MikeH]

It's fairly standard to lock accounts when under investigation because of incidents in the past. The PD are just volunteers and are doing their best to do a good job, please be patient with them.

I do understand they are volunteers, and I really am trying not to make things worse, but my issue is -- is this standard practice a good one?

I really am trying to be patient, I'm just a bit frustrated by the whole process. I don't understand why they couldn't figure out the situation without locking my account. Especially when my other characters are now also in limbo until this is sorted out.

So... WHY is this standard practice, exactly? What's to be gained? I can totally understand punishing someone who did something deliberately, or regularly broke a rule, but it's the "guilty until proven innocent" aspect that just rubs me the wrong way.

And meanwhile, life is going on for my other characters too... what if something happens to one of them? What if there's a process I'm involved in that I now miss, or a conversation that I was participating in that moves in another direction, all because of this locking? It's disruptive to the gameplay and the RP, and it's due to an event that was outside of my control.

So... I know that doesn't SOUND very patient, but I'm trying to do the best I can with what seems to me a very unfair and irritating situation.

[SekoETC]

If a player has an unfair advantage due to having two or more of their characters cooperate then it's necessary to assure that no more cooperation can happen, and before the player has replied and assured that they realize they were doing wrong and won't do it again, the only way of assuring there won't be no more damage is by stopping the player from accessing their characters. Also it might be suspected that a player is planning their actions with another player outside the game (for example when two characters work together without one asking for help, or anything being planned ingame) then it's pretty much the same as if a player had several of their characters interacting. A single character may also be breaking the CR if the player is using OOC information to guide or dictate their actions, for example if there's reason to believe that a player is making their character attack another person's character because they don't like the other player. That's the three types of CRB I can think of and they all can call for locking an account.

[MikeH]

If a player has an unfair advantage due to having two or more of their characters cooperate then it's necessary to assure that no more cooperation can happen, and before the player has replied and assured that they realize they were doing wrong and won't do it again, the only way of assuring there won't be no more damage is by stopping the player from accessing their characters. Also it might be suspected that a player is planning their actions with another player outside the game (for example when two characters work together without one asking for help, or anything being planned ingame) then it's pretty much the same as if a player had several of their characters interacting. A single character may also be breaking the CR if the player is using OOC information to guide or dictate their actions, for example if there's reason to believe that a player is making their character attack another person's character because they don't like the other player. That's the three types of CRB I can think of and they all can call for locking an account.

Except none of those really apply in this case, and the so-called "suspicious" activity is actually most easily explained by the RPing actions of the characters trying their best to deal with the unusual situation. (Although truly I can only speak for my own character)

Again, it seems like "lock first, ask questions later" regardless of the situation, which seems unfair, and can't be the only way to deal with these questions. And it's now been over a day, and ALL my characters are still locked.

Hence my frustration.

And, if in the end its proven that there are no problems, and some of my other characters have suffered due to this locking situation, do I get any recourse?

[Missy]

This is not something that's going to change because of a little frustration. After-all it's a needed procedure for certain things and if it were your characters being chased down by wrong-doing and with a possibility of serious changes to their lives (maybe even death) through foul play you'd be thankful that the PD would lock someone elses account in order to investigate, even if it turns out later that the person had perfectly legitimate reasons for doing it. It's a safety precaution and less to do with "punnishing." It might be nice to have a tool that we could freeze certain characters from activity instead of whole accounts, but there's reasoning behind needing a full account to be locked. While you may be one of the innocent/cooperative (I don't know that you are or aren't,) some people aren't so innocent or cooperative or even honest.

So worrying about the rules or remembering the nuances of various rules really doesn't enter my mind, I simply try to RP the best I can and try to get wrapped up in the game.

A little friendly advice for your own benefit...
I'd read the rules and learn them. You won't skip by on accidents for very long with claims "Well I'm just not a rule reading kind of guy. Sorry I didn't realize." Knowing the rules to the game is pretty important. It's something the PD points out to you if you don't seem to be following them/know them and they give you linnks to the rules or explain them in better detail so nothing is unclear and that you can't say "Well I didn't understand." I don't say this to chastize, it's just that you don't pull out monopoly and say, "Okay, my car goes around the loop and I win every bit of money in the bank because this is how I have fun" Because then noone would want to play with you and there's more to the game than just doing that. Just like there's more to Cantr than getting wrapped up in Rping the best you can------Although it's very nice to hear you're enjoying the game and Rping as best you can.


I'm sure if you're cooperative and honest and not yelling at them like they're out to get you that this matter will be resolved as quick as it "possibly" can be.

[MikeH]

This is not something that's going to change because of a little frustration. After-all it's a needed procedure for certain things and if it were your characters being chased down by wrong-doing and with a possibility of serious changes to their lives (maybe even death) through foul play you'd be thankful that the PD would lock someone elses account in order to investigate, even if it turns out later that the person had perfectly legitimate reasons for doing it. It's a safety precaution and less to do with "punnishing." It might be nice to have a tool that we could freeze certain characters from activity instead of whole accounts, but there's reasoning behind needing a full account to be locked. While you may be one of the innocent/cooperative (I don't know that you are or aren't,) some people aren't so innocent or cooperative or even honest.

So worrying about the rules or remembering the nuances of various rules really doesn't enter my mind, I simply try to RP the best I can and try to get wrapped up in the game.

A little friendly advice for your own benefit...
I'd read the rules and learn them. You won't skip by on accidents for very long with claims "Well I'm just not a rule reading kind of guy. Sorry I didn't realize." Knowing the rules to the game is pretty important. It's something the PD points out to you if you don't seem to be following them/know them and they give you linnks to the rules or explain them in better detail so nothing is unclear and that you can't say "Well I didn't understand." I don't say this to chastize, it's just that you don't pull out monopoly and say, "Okay, my car goes around the loop and I win every bit of money in the bank because this is how I have fun" Because then noone would want to play with you and there's more to the game than just doing that. Just like there's more to Cantr than getting wrapped up in Rping the best you can------Although it's very nice to hear you're enjoying the game and Rping as best you can.


I'm sure if you're cooperative and honest and not yelling at them like they're out to get you that this matter will be resolved as quick as it "possibly" can be.

It's not to say I didn't read the rules, it's just that, after playing for over a year, I don't necessarily have them all in mind. Especially since the point, for me at least, is to "forget" that it's a game.

I know that there are some people who read the forums a lot and participate that way, but that just doesn't interest me that much. I tried for a bit, but it didn't really "click" for me.

If the answer truly is, "that's the way it is and just deal with it or go away", I get it. I just wanted some place to ask if there weren't a better way to deal with it, or at least be a little less abrupt about it.

I feel I've been as cooperative as I can be under the circumstances.

Ultimately, I understand it's not really my playground, and if I'm not wanted, then I do have the option of leaving for good. Its just unfortunate that it feels this way.

[Missy]

It is not to say you are not wanted here. But it is to say that the PD has a way to do things.

I would hope you could read between the lines.

it's a needed procedure for certain things and if it were your characters being chased down by wrong-doing and with a possibility of serious changes to their lives (maybe even death) through foul play you'd be thankful that the PD would lock someone elses account in order to investigate, even if it turns out later that the person had perfectly legitimate reasons for doing it. It's a safety precaution and less to do with "punnishing."

That small second of locking an account before a death occurrs or something is said (that maybe shouldn't be,) can make a whole world of difference for people that are going to lose a character/what not due to foul play. I'm not saying that you were involved in any, and they don't always know that a player is/isn't before they lock an account. It's not something done to make you upset (even if it does,) it's something done just to insure that anything that shouldn't occurr, doesn't ,while they check the legitimacy of it happening at all. Mostly because we can't take back a cheaters kill. Or make every person in a town disregard something a character said because it shouldn't have been said in the first place, we can't take back a hit from one character out of two that a single person plays after it's already occurred when it (in most cases,) shouldn't have happened at all.


And so, if you've been as cooperative as you say you have been, I'm sure that this matter is already being resolved or in the proccess of.

[MikeH]

It is not to say you are not wanted here. But it is to say that the PD has a way to do things.

I would hope you could read between the lines.

it's a needed procedure for certain things and if it were your characters being chased down by wrong-doing and with a possibility of serious changes to their lives (maybe even death) through foul play you'd be thankful that the PD would lock someone elses account in order to investigate, even if it turns out later that the person had perfectly legitimate reasons for doing it. It's a safety precaution and less to do with "punnishing."

That small second of locking an account before a death occurrs or something is said (that maybe shouldn't be,) can make a whole world of difference for people that are going to lose a character/what not due to foul play. I'm not saying that you were involved in any, and they don't always know that a player is/isn't before they lock an account. It's not something done to make you upset (even if it does,) it's something done just to insure that anything that shouldn't occurr, doesn't ,while they check the legitimacy of it happening at all. Mostly because we can't take back a cheaters kill. Or make every person in a town disregard something a character said because it shouldn't have been said in the first place, we can't take back a hit from one character out of two that a single person plays after it's already occurred when it (in most cases,) shouldn't have happened at all.


And so, if you've been as cooperative as you say you have been, I'm sure that this matter is already being resolved or in the proccess of.

Perhaps you are right, and my frustration is coloring my perception. But to go back to the very beginning -- the act of locking my account, and the message sent to me announcing this, very much sent the signal "you are guilty until proven innocent".

And that, as the beginning of this process for me, has colored my reaction to it quite unfavorably.

[Solfius]

On a tangent, when MikeH said:

I don't really read the forum, I mainly just play the game. So worrying about the rules or remembering the nuances of various rules really doesn't enter my mind

I interpreted it as meaning MikeH doesn't read the forums, and so doesn't the many discussions where the rules are clarified (like many other I imagine).

Is there a page somewhere that gives the official rules and their interpretation, for reference by players?

The only page I can find is on the Wiki: http://cantr.net/mwiki/index.php/Game_Rules

and that clearly states

Note that the text below is not the authoritative representation of the rules, since this page can be edited by anyone.

The text you have to read (or skip past) when you create an account certainly doesn't explain the 2 char per location/organisation limit, the 4 day rule, state OOC cooperation is against the rules, or even explain that each player is restricted to one account.

[MikeH]

On a tangent, when MikeH said:

I don't really read the forum, I mainly just play the game. So worrying about the rules or remembering the nuances of various rules really doesn't enter my mind

I interpreted it as meaning MikeH doesn't read the forums, and so doesn't the many discussions where the rules are clarified (like many other I imagine).

Is there a page somewhere that gives the official rules and their interpretation, for reference by players?

The only page I can find is on the Wiki: http://cantr.net/mwiki/index.php/Game_Rules

and that clearly states

Note that the text below is not the authoritative representation of the rules, since this page can be edited by anyone.

The text you have to read (or skip past) when you create an account certainly doesn't explain the 2 char per location/organisation limit, the 4 day rule, state OOC cooperation is against the rules, or even explain that each player is restricted to one account.

Indeed, this is part of what I was trying to express. And ironically, I found a discussion of this specific, recent problem -- and the official, appropriate response for players -- only AFTER my account had already been locked.

So I was unaware that I was acting incorrectly, I truly thought I was behaving the best way until the situation was resolved -- and it was too late to change my characters behavior after I found out, even though I actually would have been perfectly happy to RP as recommended at that point.

[Missy]

So I was unaware that I was acting incorrectly, I truly thought I was behaving the best way until the situation was resolved -- and it was too late to change my characters behavior after I found out, even though I actually would have been perfectly happy to RP as recommended at that point.

But it's not to the forum of whom you owe such explanations. It's actually those who have your account locked.


For as far as the rules go, this has always been a no brainer, but of course in the beginning of the game we actally had a department which dealt specifically with these kinds of things and so people were more apt to say "Oh yeah, maybe I better not ----- this and I should report it to said department."

As soon as the smoke clears, I will make a formal message so those who are playing now have better understanding and if it is not "written" in any set of rules (though for some reason I'm thinking that it was,) I will see what I can do to get it put there.

[SekoETC]

I don't get it how come some people have such a hard time getting the Capital Rule. It's like having a conscience that tells you what is right and what is wrong.

[Tiamo]

Morality isn't something we are born with, Seko. Every individual has to learn about it. And everyone picks up the lessons a little differently, even gets different lessons! Your 'right' and 'wrong' differ (a little bit) from my 'right' and 'wrong'.

The CR is the hardest part of Cantr to grasp, because the line between what is allowed and what is not allowed is impossible to draw exactly. There is no objective measure, and we all measure by (slightly) different standards. This is reflected in the ongoing discussions about the subject on this forum, where even staff members sometimes have different opinions.
The CR is a type of rule any designer wants to avoid in a game. Unfortunately it sometimes is unavoidable.