An Essay on Motivation II: Technology & Quests

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The Sociologist
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An Essay on Motivation II: Technology & Quests

Postby The Sociologist » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:33 pm

Those of us who've been around awhile can doubtless remember starting out playing Cantr years back when there was no Wiki and technological information was under the control of the characters. More accurately, it was under the control of the players who, if they played a certain style of game, might choose to restrict it to those of their characters who had already found out how to do something. Some players even kept detailed accounts of which character had already learnt how to use which machine. So, therefore, finding out how to crush hematite might well prove to be a major quest, and quests are not a bad thing. There were also big debates here on the forum. I was one of those who argued that if a machine is called a "loom" it could surely be accepted that our characters were meant somehow to "guess" that it must have something to do with the production of cloth. There were of course "purists" who argued differently, while many newcomers pointed out that there must surely be a lot of cheating on the part of established players, especially whenever they came to start new characters. In time, the outcome of all this controversy was the Wiki, so the whole project was rendered irrelevant.

Now I am not knocking the Wiki. I was one of those who felt that leaving enforcement of the above "old" style of play entirely to the players was an impossibility....certainly more so as time went on. But this does mean that technological information flows have, in effect, disappeared from the game. There is no sense of questing for information, no sense of discovery, no possibility of invention. Technological innovation is now entirely in the hands of staff and arrives right across the world of Cantr in an instant. This is very artificial when compared to human history. I also have no doubt that this situation is also contributing to the higher turnover of more established players. Many, I suspect, are "exhausting" the game, so to speak, long before this should be the case. Indeed, I am in the process of terminating some of my senior characters right now. They simply have no sense of anything further to do or achieve. These are not decisions I've taken lightly. I've wracked my brains in an effort to find some motivation for them to follow, but there seems to be none. They bore me.

So, what am I saying? Well, simply put, Cantr needs a sense of invention and a sense of questing for the new. This need cannot be satisfied purely by discovery of new lands, let alone by trading across continents. The distances are simply too great. Also one would, in such cases, mostly be questing for new materials, not for inventions.

Now for a little diversion. There is a cycle of operas which goes something like this. It opens with the maidens of the Rhine guarding a lump of gold which lies deep beneath the waters. A niebelung called Alberich arrives on the scene and proceeds to flirt with the maidens, but they reject him as ugly and uncouth. Along the way, though, they tell him that anyone who siezes the gold, and who renounces love, may forge it into an object of power. Well, since his flirting had failed, our nerdish friend does precisely that. There follows an incredibly long and borderline incoherent story, during which the gods build Valhalla, but involve themselves in the corruption of Alberich's cursed object. Oh and a woman is condemned to sleep forever surrounded by a circle of fire, only to be woken by a man who knows no fear. (The whole of what became "Sleeping Beauty" is just one Act!) To cut a very very long story short, her champion later dies, she immolates herself on his funeral pyre, Valhalla burns down, and the Rhine overflows its banks. In the very last scene, Alberich throws back the cursed object and the maidens restore the gold to the waters of the eternal river. So what was the object Alberich forged? If you don't know the operas, you should be able to guess. No? Think Tolkien. Yes. Wagner's opera cycle is indeed called "The Ring of the Niebelungs".

I mention Tolkien because the two are not unrelated and have parallel sources in Nordic mythology. In Wagner's operas, Valhalla stands more or less for the modern state, Alberich is an industrialist of a sort and the ring perhaps stands for technology, or at least for some kinds of technology. In Tolkien, the whole saga perhaps stands for a quest to undo a certain kind of technology, at least that kind which brought us WWI and WWII. This was rather well brought out in the final movie, I thought. Anyhow, in both stories the ring of power is returned to Nature, the forging is undone. I mention all this because this overall epic saga is the primary source of all the fantasy books, D&D games and clones which followed. Alas the clones got cheaper and nastier and less relevant to anything as time went on. However, at root, that was what it was all about. Spell scrolls, magic objects and quests all stand, in a certain sense, for technological means of power. Good technology, "bad" technology, related environmental issues and so on.

So the essential difference between Cantr and your run of the mill MUD is that Cantr demythologizes the plot and leaves players to create their own mythologies through their characters. However, and this is my key argument for today, the players of Cantr cannot really create mythologies, or indeed history of any kind, without quests.

I am not of course suggesting quests developed by PD. Such quests should arise organically from the game. But in order for them to arise, you need some concept of innovation. Now, if a magic scroll in the traditional MUDs can be said to stand for a new and more powerful way of doing something, ie a technological invention which is written down, then maybe Cantr needs such a possibility. In Cantr this would simply be a blueprint. (Yes, I know this has been suggested before, but I'd like to try and emphasize the new rationale, since it was most likely rejected before the Wiki came to be).

A blueprint would be an object in your inventory something like a key, but containing descriptive information which could be read like a note. Blueprints would be displayed in a separate inventory subsection and could in some instances be clicked to start a project. Or else, they might be read through by the program to provide additional menu items when starting a project in some other way, eg when cooking in an oven. They would be copyable but, like keys, would require a timed project and maybe some resource to copy. This would preclude mass production. Blueprints would arise by a process of discovery or invention, and this is where the skills system would come into its own. My view here is that skills should either be really worth something, or else not be bothered with. In this instance, their worth would lie in the ability to "invent" rare items using one's speciality skills.

Let me try to provide an example pertaining to clothing. ProgD sets up the possibility of clothing items with multiple levels of description and RD adds some descriptions. For example, "X1 X2 dress ebroidered with a pattern of X3 in X4" would give us possiblities like "a scarlet satin dress embroidered with a pattern of lilies in gold lace and sequins". Now what RD has done has been to scatter around some resources for dyes and some other resources like lilies, oak leaves, etc, which aren't good for much except that they can serve as a basis for such patterning. What has occurred is that our expert clothier happens to have been holding in his hands some scarlet dye and some lillies; suddenly he "happens" to invent this particular blueprint. Once invented, the blueprint can be copied and passed around for use by other clothiers. It becomes information that is tradeable.

The story doesn't quite end there. The "satin" mentioned can of course only be made on a speciality loom. And such a loom would likewise be the invention of an engineer (skills in constructing buildings, machines and vehicles, for example). Given that you can have satin, velvet, brocade, corduroy, tweed and any number of speciality cloths, there is much scope for new engineer-invented machinery. Furthermore, following the recent suggestions about modularity (Doug, et al), engineers could likewise "invent" the machines required to produce the new hardened steels needed for superior blades and steel bow parts, and so on, while metalsmiths would have to "invent" the components made from such new materials. There are many other possibilities. If raw foods were divided into carbohydrates, vegetables/fruits, and proteins (meat, fish, nuts, etc), and values were assigned in a way that could be made formulaic (based on how values were manually calculated in the case of stew), then it should be possible for characters to "invent" recipes for new combinations in a way similar to the above suggestion for clothing. The only onus on RD would be to ensure an adequate spread of these three food components across broad regions of the map. RD would not themselves have to intoduce each new type of meal.

It seems likely to me that if skills are ever to be worthwhile, they should be grouped into professions which make some sense in terms of roleplay opportunities. Currently, skills are too atomized and I've seldom if ever seen players pursuing only their expert skills in any coherent way which can be said to constitute a profession or trade. It is actually shockingly bad. Only one of my characters has ever bought a weapon and hardly any have ever bought clothes. Even New Xanth has only managed to provide scope for dedicated blacksmiths, fletchers and clothiers through a rigorous form of communal social organization which can hardly be said to involve "free enterprise". You need something to make a profession necessary. Such broad skill groupings might be engineer, clothier, metalsmith, woodsman/fletcher, chef, horticulturalist and maybe just a few others, while medical doctors might become possible if we ever get to see anything resembling medicines. However, the bottom line is this. Skills will only ever amount to more than an irritating nuisance if they bestow unique opportunities. However, in order to design professions that characters can pursue in a coherent way, it is essential that skills somehow be grouped into trades that are worth following.

What does all the above buy us? Well, it buys the reintroduction into the game of information flows. Inventions may once again be controlled, sought, traded and even fought over. Remember that in real life no single person can remember in their head how to build a BMW. The documentation, if ever printed out, would amount to a massive stack of paper, most of which are appendices filled with tables of engineering tolerances. You may have read just recently of the attempt to steal and pass on patent information from CocaCola. And then there's your great aunt Agatha with her secret recipe for jam tarts, just to prove that control of information is not restricted to large corporations! There is nothing artificial in this suggestion about blueprints...it is how the real world works.

I'm not suggesting, by the way, that existing "entry-level" machinery, buildings, items or food should require this process of invention and blueprinting to produce. This will be used only for more "advanced" items yet to come. It will remain possible to play the game without blueprints and questing for them would be rather more a preoccupation of the game's elites. One of the problems that both ProgD and RD have to face is that human societies are always evolving. Fashions are forever changing, technologies forever arising and being superseded. So the challenge for these departments becomes how to keep ahead of the game. Clearly, combining a process of modularized components with a process of invention and blueprinting, will provide a massive explosion of potential since such potential grows exponentially.

I am always concerned when I read announcements such as the recent one that the laying out of resources has been "finished". Surely the golden rule must be that nothing in the game can ever be said to be finished? Just recently I chanced upon an article about the world palladium industry. Did anyone even know what palladium was a few centuries ago? Do you know? What is it used for? What might be quite fun in Cantr is to have new resources appear but be unidentified or unusable except by expert miners (if they're metals) or expert horticulturalists (if they're plants). You would have to invent a "blueprint" for their use.

In conclusion, the above ideas--or similar ideas which someone else might come up with--might serve to help reinvigorate the game and provide something akin to the "questing" of well-managed traditional MUDs. Large parts of the two established continents have become very static over time, the only brief excitement arising from "timber quests" here and there. In some ways the Treefeather Map is almost too powerful. I can clearly detect the difference between that island and the poorly mapped Xiria region for example...some of my characters there face rather more that is unknown. But of course, in time, the player maps will always catch up with physical geography. What they can never catch up with is the above outlined process of innovation and blueprinting.

And just imagine the fun of your character arriving in a strange town bearing new blueprints for machines, weapons or clothes never before seen there! The chance to play a craftsman with real secrets of your craft. The possibility of real craft guilds with something to protect. Finally, if your character has a baby son or daughter, and that son or daughter will one day be played by you, then your character will be even more reluctant to part with the "secrets" that will one day form part of his or her patrimony. Or else imagine playing a medical doctor who has discovered a new instant cure for the sneezing sickness. Use your imaginations! As always, an idea should promote activity and motivation, in-game motivations being of course the source of good roleplay.

Once again, stalwart souls who read this far, thanks for your patience! :D
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Doug R.
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Postby Doug R. » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:49 pm

This is a fantastic idea. It would take a considerable amount of effort to implement properly, though.

PS. Tolkien always stated that his stories were not making any kind of statements about society, but were just stories.
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Re: An Essay on Motivation II: Technology & Quests

Postby Talapus » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:53 pm

The Sociologist wrote:I am always concerned when I read announcements such as the recent one that the laying out of resources has been "finished". Surely the golden rule must be that nothing in the game can ever be said to be finished?


I believe this means that all lands have recieved thier initial placing of resources. There was a time when lands existed, but contained no animals, no resources, and sometimes no places to dock a boat. Future resources may still yet be added as we need them.

One question for you Sociologist. In your proposal, would the possible products from these blueprints be published on the Wiki, or would the RD hold them secret?
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Postby saztronic » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:26 pm

I like this idea, although complicated. I'd put a slightly different spin on it at the start maybe to make it easier. Let's say that you implement a technology in the game that, if acquired, would allow your smelter to be twice as efficient as standard. It should be difficult to get -- requiring resources from different lands, or specialized tools that could only be made with said resources.

Suddenly you have a platform for competition between communities -- and the potential for one community to gain an upper hand over another. To produce goods more cheaply, to become a locus of trade, to rise in status versus its neighbors -- just as technological advances have allowed societies to do throughout history. I think this would do a great deal to galvanize economies and the rise and fall of powerful societies.

Same could be done for shipping (innovations that allow your ships to move twice as fast), or agriculture, or machines that make tools or other machines.... I'm not dissing Soc's more complex idea, but I do think it would be a severe bitch to implement practically. The above could offer a starting point and a way to evaluate how more complex systems would work and/or affect the game.
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Postby Doug R. » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:38 pm

The problem is, I think, that you can't just offer something more, you need to offer something different. If doubling my smelting furnace output is going to make me jump through hoops for 15 years, I can just forgo the hoops and spend that time making iron. On the other hand, if I can get a smelter that makes a different type of iron that I can sell so people can make superior tools/weapons, and I can have a monopoly on the smelter for a good chunk of time until someone else figures it out, then that would definately be worth spending 15 years to invent.
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Re: An Essay on Motivation II: Technology & Quests

Postby Doug R. » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:45 pm

Talapus wrote:One question for you Sociologist. In your proposal, would the possible products from these blueprints be published on the Wiki, or would the RD hold them secret?


I'm not speaking for him, but I would say that the products would have to be a RD secret, but with sufficient in-game clues to allow a fairly observant player to know where to start looking. If everyone knew they could make an adamantium refiner, I guarantee you everyone would drop what they were doing the next hour and get on it, trade clues in private chat conversations, and essentially have it all figured out within weeks.

I designed a map for a game once, that had 64 blocks with random teleporters to other blocks, with only one correct path out of the map to the next level. I had honestly assumed that if anyone found their way out, it would be luck. It was meant to be a place for the oldbies to go and get lost and die (since the game was becoming imbalanced). They all just got together off-line and compared notes, and had the map cracked in a month of play. Any bluebrint system would have to expect this type of OOC cooperation and be designed to discourage it, and I think not advertising the possible products is a very good first step.
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Postby Mykey » Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:51 pm

It agree, the helpful information
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Postby Peanut » Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:49 pm

yekyM wrote::twisted: ........ maerd nac I tub ,salA .reerac rtnac ym ni ti ees lliw I tboud I ,lauhrevo rojam a hcus ekil smees tI .thgir enod eb dluohs ti enod si siht fI
.noitatnemelpmi rof ecneitap dna thguoht fo deen osla dluow tub ,esnes fo tola sekam ti kniht I :wink: tsigoloicos yasse taerg rehtonA


This post has been destupified :twisted:


J.K. :wink:
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Postby Jur Schagen » Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:08 pm

I have thought about a system like this many times... and thought of a way to do something like it, with zero programming, and a lot of RD work.

Think of something like a Civ tech tree (1). Every tech is in the database as a special tool called a "scroll" (a word I like better than blueprint though it's probably the same as you mean soc). To "build" the scroll, you have to devote time and resources just like any other tool project (hard RD work to set up). The scroll is then added to the "requirements" of the project where the science is needed (just like you need a screwdriver to build a bike, you now also need a "cycling knowledge") scroll.

Building the scrolls themselves might require other scrolls as well... like, if you want to build the "cycling" scroll, you'd need the "wheel" scroll first, and maybe the "welding" one too... you can take this as far as you want.

Finally, the scrolls can be "copied" by setting up machine ("school bench"?) projects that take one scroll for input and produce two as output, so knowledge can be shared, traded, etc.

This doesn't cover one part of your design, Soc, namely the relation to skills. But I must say I think you're trying to solve two problems in one solution here; why would we indefinately exclude chars (or spawns region, taking average skills from their parents!) with the possibility to, one day, build a bike?

Since this solution goes along the "regular" path of building tools, I don't see a way to keep it out of "buildable stuff" lists, which means wiki entries too, so the buildable stuff would all be public. But the fact that "JagdPanzer Sturmgeschütz Destroyer Mark IV" is on the list, and that you can figure out what you would need to build it single-handedly (also including 99,000 days of labour), don't mean that it isn't a lofty goal anymore, is it? Apart from that, the RD can indeed "keep ahead" of the current game by adding said piece of weaponry only when the first "primitive tank" was built.

One more problem. I'd say that a complex machine like a dirt motocycle or a radio would require high-level and stacked tech. However, if we implement that now, it would again mean that "current" motocycles and radio's were favored yet again - very much like the sabre that was built before the hematite change. Undesirable, I would say, though I don't see a solution that would please current owners as well as current non-owners.

Jur.

PS - the reason why I never spoke about this (except here: http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 8&start=15), was the poor RP value... you guys can be really tough on pre-programmed stuff. By defining science in game mechanics, you take away roleplaying possibilities - though, I'd like to say, it also adds opportunities.


(1) Civ tech tree: the game "Civilization" by Sid Meyer uses a system of stacked techs, were you develop simple tech first, and can develop more complex tech if you've got the right earlier tech. Building of specific units, buildings, etc is only possible if you have the associated tech level.
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Postby The Sociologist » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:09 am

Doug R. wrote:This is a fantastic idea. It would take a considerable amount of effort to implement properly, though.

I am trying to base it around what little I know of OOP from a business-analysis perspective. If MySQL implements it properly, then the programmers should have some considerable flexibility at their disposal. In a nutshell, objects are dynamically instantiated, rather than being absolute clones of the same old fixed table. The blueprint itself then generates the "project object" and so on. Can it be done? I don't know enough about MySQL to be able to say.

Talapus wrote:One question for you Sociologist. In your proposal, would the possible products from these blueprints be published on the Wiki, or would the RD hold them secret?

I see no harm in the principles being mentioned in the Wiki, but the whole point is there would be too many different kinds of items for you to list every possible combination. To mention clothing again, if you have a mere 4 colors, 4 kinds of cloth, 4 kinds of decorative materials and 4 design patterns, how many possible combinations of dress would there be? If you see what I'm getting at, each one is a blueprint!

saztronic wrote:It should be difficult to get -- requiring resources from different lands, or specialized tools that could only be made with said resources.

Like bronze made from phosphorous? Nope, sorry, isn't working. Transcontinental trade is and always will be too erratic. Heck, trade from three towns away is too erratic. :( Furthermore this is very different from the issue of information flows, and it's that which I was trying to model.

Doug R. wrote:I'm not speaking for him, but I would say that the products would have to be a RD secret, but with sufficient in-game clues to allow a fairly observant player to know where to start looking. If everyone knew they could make an adamantium refiner, I guarantee you everyone would drop what they were doing the next hour and get on it, trade clues in private chat conversations, and essentially have it all figured out within weeks.

Oh dear, Doug, I obviously didn't devote enough time to describing the process of invention. No, what I'm proposing is far different from this. A experienced engineer in your example would be busy building some other more ordinary smelter or maybe even repairing one. He happens to have in his inventory some bizarre stuff that an experienced miner has told him is raw adamantium (and has copied him the blueprint for knowing what it is) and ---hey presto--- he thinks Eureka! And realizes that he has invented an adamantium refiner (event message). The blueprint is then in his inventory. But this would be a rare event and certainly a speciality of people who work pretty consistently only at their chosen professions...mixed with luck (ie random chance).

What I do not want to see is characters spending ten years indoors on the dedicated task of trying to invent an adamantium refiner. That would be boring and I'm against boredom. So, given this, I don't see much harm in mentioning it in the Wiki. Otherwise we'd go back to the old plebian newbie gripes about how "some people abuse knowing everything and we know nothing", etc, etc. That was the riot the Wiki was supposed to stop in the first place.

Jur Schagen wrote:I have thought about a system like this many times... and thought of a way to do something like it, with zero programming, and a lot of RD work.

Think of something like a Civ tech tree (1). Every tech is in the database as a special tool called a "scroll" (a word I like better than blueprint though it's probably the same as you mean soc). To "build" the scroll, you have to devote time and resources just like any other tool project (hard RD work to set up). The scroll is then added to the "requirements" of the project where the science is needed (just like you need a screwdriver to build a bike, you now also need a "cycling knowledge") scroll.

Building the scrolls themselves might require other scrolls as well... like, if you want to build the "cycling" scroll, you'd need the "wheel" scroll first, and maybe the "welding" one too... you can take this as far as you want.

Gracious, Jur. With all due respect that doesn't pass my boredom test. It sounds just like adding yet more tools whenever you make something. I understand the interest in stacking these scolls of yours into trees, but it just means that everyone everwhere would automatically come up with the same old culture provided they worked hard enough. Sounds like the good old "Protestant Ethic and Spirit of Capitalism" of Max Weber and company. :wink:

Let me empasize this point. The proposed system should be such that the only thing towns can do to promote inventiveness is to collect together as many strange resources as possible and also encourage as many famous engineers, clothiers metalsmiths and whatnot to stick around and pursue their specialized professions.
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Postby saztronic » Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:40 am

The Sociologist wrote:
saztronic wrote:It should be difficult to get -- requiring resources from different lands, or specialized tools that could only be made with said resources.

Like bronze made from phosphorous? Nope, sorry, isn't working. Transcontinental trade is and always will be too erratic. Heck, trade from three towns away is too erratic. :( Furthermore this is very different from the issue of information flows, and it's that which I was trying to model.


The Sociologist wrote:Let me empasize this point. The proposed system should be such that the only thing towns can do to promote inventiveness is to collect together as many strange resources as possible and also encourage as many famous engineers, clothiers metalsmiths and whatnot to stick around and pursue their specialized professions.


I don't see how the latter works without the former. How many "strange" resources are located on any one particular island? Most resources are familiar to those who've lived on it any length of time. It's only when traders or explorers from other islands show up that you see new stuff.

Beyond which, in order not to be boring, "inventiveness," as you put it, would have to have some real, tangible benefit for groups of people to seek it out -- to hoard all these disparate resources, and to stick together as a community of master craftspeople. Otherwise, why bother? To use your example, 4 colors, 4 design patterns, 4 materials, etc. -- who cares? Talk about boredom. I mean, from an RP perspective, you could make it work. But it wouldn't take most people more than three or four of the myriad combinations to get bored with it, even from an RP perspective.

Why? Because clothes don't give you a material advantage in the game. And if inventiveness were to give you a material advantage in the game, then it can't be easy to achieve (else everyone would get it, negating the advantage). I'm not talking about transcontinental trade as such. But your concept is built on quests. Archetypal quests involve journeys -- a search for something, through difficulties, something generally hidden, not easy to find, and of great value. It doesn't involve puttering around in your studio with a bunch of strange stuff and waiting for lightning to strike. All right, it might include that, but I wouldn't say that's it's most challenging or interesting form.

The Sociologist wrote:I am trying to base it around what little I know of OOP from a business-analysis perspective. If MySQL implements it properly, then the programmers should have some considerable flexibility at their disposal. In a nutshell, objects are dynamically instantiated, rather than being absolute clones of the same old fixed table. The blueprint itself then generates the "project object" and so on. Can it be done? I don't know enough about MySQL to be able to say.


I don't know MySQL either, but I do know nuts and bolts OOP, and what you're describing, although I'd need to hear a much crisper definition, sounds a bit hairy. You can create conditions where tables and objects can be generated dynamically, but it's very difficult indeed to predict -- and therefore anticipate how to program for -- the consequences within the overall DB. I'd be nervous trying to do something like that with just a handful of users. But with a thousand, who could create a thousand new objects with different properties and relationships to each other? If I'm understanding it correctly it sounds like a recipe for disaster.

I would guess this is why Jur proposed what he did... not because it's the most interesting way to do it; but because it's the most interesting you could do it, practically speaking.
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Postby Nalaris » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:38 am

Interesting? Yes. Plausible? Maybe. Useful? I doubt it.

If we give these inventions some kind of individual use...
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Postby Nixit » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:43 am

I'm guessing that the clothes scenario was some kind of EXAMPLE.

I'm guessing that inventions are possible for machinery, thereby making more efficient forms of machinery.

I'm guessing that has some use.

I'm guessing it wouldn't stop at clothes and machinery.
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Postby Nalaris » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:18 am

Sociologist, if we're expected to understand this, then I think you need to give us examples for all the major professions you described...

And I think I should be able to translate if your descriptions don't appear clear or condensed enough (assuming this is possible).
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Postby Mykey » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:15 am

For a long time I here was not.
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