Cantr II Discussion Forum

Again, bear with me. My mind demands to dump stuff like this at times...

Since this is a roleplaying game (sort of) and the archetypical computer roleplaying game (CRPG from now on) is a fantasy game based on Dungeons & Dragons, I couldn't help but reflect on some tropes of the genre. Discounting the wizards college (no actual magic in Cantr, though an apothecary could fill the role, perhaps), churches (we have concluded in other threads that religion doesn't fly in Cantr ), fighters' guilds (could work, and probably does, but are not the subject of this post) and other ideas, there is one concept that might work. The thieves' guild, meaning a society within regular society which lives on committing crimes. The following are merely my musings on the idea...

First, a few requirements need to be set:

1) The "thieves" (heck, let's call them a "mafia" from now on) need to maintain absolute secrecy. Penalties range from imprisonment to worse in some places, thus they have to remain unnoticed. This is complicated by the fact that Cantrians are extremely perceptive (noticing everything that happens in the same locations as them). Committing crimes outside is therefore pretty much impossible, unless you are prepared to eliminate all witnesses, accept the punishment (probably not if the crime is significant enough to not be undone by the punishment, i.e. murder), or fight your way from the scene of the crime (since it's hard to run from a village if law enforcement leaves the village to chase you in time). "Hit and run"-crimes COULD be committed with a vehicle, though. I think I will expand on those below...

2) Because of this, forget about the associated fantasy trope that everyone knows where the "guild" lives and who to contact. These guys contact YOU if you seem a likely candidate, and probably do bad stuff to you if you don't join. The exception would be bandit cities and pirate ships who can defend themselves. This also means that John Doe can't look for the mafia if he needs to buy restricted goods, but the Mayor who wants people dead, or the wealthy trader who wants restricted goods, may be contacted by someone who "knows people who can get things done".

3) Thieves still need a way to communicate. If radio is spread enough in the area that they can acquire it easily, it probably isn't safe from accidental eavesdropping. Sending messages by mail is out of the question. Fortunately, Cantrians lose in hearing what they have gained in sight, as you cannot eavesdrop on two people whispering. Although if two people whisper a lot to each other and one is then caught in a crime...

Anyway, on to the different crimes. Let's start with the basics:

Theft
Have a guy walk into a village, pick stuff up, and leave. The problem? He'll be caught as surely as there is meat in cows, since everyone will see him enter the warehouse. The solution? Use a vehicle (much faster than a walking person) to outrun any law enforcement, and don't use the same thief and/or vehicle twice in the same village, since both can be recognized.

Heck, you can even rob the same place multiple times if you just make sure beforehand that they didn't get a vehicle of their own (to pursue thieves) or put locks on the buildings since last time. Just get a spy in the village. For this purpose, he can even send coded mail to his comrades in crime when precautions against theft are taken. This could get VERY profitable...

Another solution - if the villagers don't count their goods - would be to set up a spy as a respectable citizen with access to the village warehouse (Assuming they have one. This doesn't work with small villages that store just their goods on the ground, but then the "grab and outdrive" version works) and have him steal small amounts of goods that no one will notice. Then a mafia representative will have to collect it, posing as someone who would need to do business with the spy. See "smuggling" below...

Villages that have every commodity locked up and keep records of how much they own are likely to be safe from theft (you are seen if you pick or break locks, right?). Unless the spy has access to the records...

Poaching
Forget about it! You'll be caught. Yes, it can be done with the same methods as "Theft" above, but the godfather who has his underlings drive into towns on their motorcycles, shoot any animals in sight, and drive off with the meat and bones is likely to be viewed as slightly humorous.

Note that this could be a source of eggs (healing food) for a more violent mafia. Still, you just showed an entire village one of your underlings. That's bad!

Smuggling
Oooh! So possible. And if, say, iron trade is restricted (since it can be made into weapons), it could also be lucrative, given a government-instituted monopoly. However, since everyone can see transfers of thing between people, the trade needs to occur somewhere private. The safest is to set up a "fence" in town who will let you into his house (and can provide an explanation as to why he lets these blokes run inside his warehouse). Since Cantrians can't be frisked, the goods are reasonably safe while they don't switch hands.

Assassination (with mostly correct number of s:s)
So far, no one can kill a healthy man in a single stroke (or that's what I've heard) with any weapon. Even a band of assassins might have a hard time. Thus, even with access to a secluded area to hit the target in (perhaps they are in possession of a key to his home/warehouse), this is hard to pull off unnoticed. And if a bunch of blokes swarm into the Mayor's office and later leave, and the Mayor is then found dead, well...

Possibilities include the "hit and drive" method mentioned in "Theft" above, or to follow the Mayor on travel and kill him on a road. The first marks three or so of your hitmen as criminals in that village (And this is hard to repeat in the same village, since you need to gain trust first and find out which man in his twenties is the Mayor. A woman in her eighties is easier to identify, though.), the second is hard to pull off (What if the Mayor never leaves the village? That's likely, y'know.)

Murder of entire towns is easier to get away with. It's been done, even, according to the webzine. Just kill all witnesses. However, this might not always be desirable:
"You killed the Mayor for me? Good! Now I can rule the villagers!"
"What villagers?"

In either case, this would probably mostly be done to serious enemies of the mafia, or be a service highly charged for...

Kidnapping
Quite possible. Just drive into town with a locked multi-person vehicle (preferably a ship) and drag your target onboard/inside. then drive off. Since vehicles have to be outside (right?) you have to drag them outside, so forget getting away unseen. This is a job for pirates. Also, I'm not sure, but a locked shack might be in order, or the captive might get it in his head to steer the vehicle off course...

Slave trade
Begins with a kidnapping. After that, it gets trickier. Transferring a captive anywhere runs the risk of him, well, running. For obvious reasons, it would be easiest in a society that allows this practice. Otherwise, nothing stops the slave from yelling for help while being dragged through the town square. If you can convince a lawful village that you are punishing criminals, that could work...

It is probably easiest to have the slave work for the mafia, in their hidden lawless town on an otherwise uninhabited island (They have one, right? Oh, and send a thought to any newspawns at that island. Can you say "target practice"? ). As said, this is a job for thugs, not for cloak and dagger-thieves.

Espionage
Spies are useful, as seen in "Theft" and "Smuggling". Also, dons into politics may want to know what goes down in neighboring towns. Just have some bloke enter town and establish himself as a useful member of society, occasionally sending an underling to get reports. The most useful would be someone who can pass as a trader or craftsman who needs a lockable building.

Framing
Long term-framing is the easiest. Commit several crimes, posing as the framed person. Those who saw you will be able to tell the difference between you and the framed one, but word may spread to those who haven't seen either you or the victim, and then he will have a bad reputation. More difficult would be to steal goods secretly (but making sure the loss is noticed) and leave them in a container in the victim's building. (Why bother with people who don't have enough political clout to own a building?) Or in a multitude of other ways...


I think those were all. Comments? Flames? Corrections?

Why don't you try it out IC instead of writing about it here. You seem to have it fleshed out really good, so try and convince some stray dogs IC and get to it.

This way it might have a CR-breach effect in something like "Lets start a thieves guild, you know like in that post on the forum".

Edit : Spelling, missing words, old age.

EchoMan wrote:Why don't you try it out IC instead of writing about it here. You seem to have it fleshed out really good, so try and convince some stray dogs IC and get to it.

Too lazy. Well, I might do it, but right now I'm just writing my thoughts down to get them out of my head. The voices are complaining about the crampedness, see...

EchoMan wrote:This way it might have a CR-breach effect in something like "Lets start a thieves guild, you know like in that post on the forum".

Not my problem. Seriously, that is a CR breach, and a stupid one too, when you can just copy-paste this, rephrase it, and distribute it as "the thieves' handbook" IG (it's nothing that a smart mafia don couldn't come up with in-game, I think). And if PD comes down on someone just because they use ideas similar to this, the need to take a break. (No offense intended to any at PD who read this, I know you won't do that. ) There are hints in the webzine. PD doesn't hit people who use those.

/Al Hellzone

You've been reading Nick's notes, haven't you?

*giggles* What does Nick have anything to do with it?

Sho wrote:You've been reading Nick's notes, haven't you?

Just kidding. If you don't know, Nick is known for having immoral "might makes right"-type characters, and I think he's tried most of the tactics in your post at one time or other.

Figured so...
But yeah, I joined a week ago. Haven't really figured out which users have reputations...

Hehe yeah, I know about his characters, Sho...I'm just messin around.

you've been watching the godfather haven't you?

There have been threads about this D&D-kind of stuff before.
For example, http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6733 is one where an important arguement was made about the Dungeons and Dragons thing.

1. This organization of thieves would require them needing to communicate among eachother in ooc ways to organize.
That's a CR breach already...
But, moving on to the hit-and-run crimes, well... what if the thieves aren't the only ones with vehicles?
(Because they aren't... there are places where law enforcement has the most efficient vehicles)
And speaking of vehicles, this would require the vehicles to be unidentifiable, to really work.
Because if someone sees the "Dorian Raider" (for example), pull into town, and they heard it was involved in crimes, well, guess what... they'd get their law enforcers ready before the player who's char is inside that vehicle would be letting his char leave the vehicle.
And no matter how fast a vehicle is, there's no way they'd beat the speed of a radio message.

2. Again, this "guild" of thieves would require organization on a level that takes it ooc, unless you're accepting that you're just running a clan like any other in the game, except that your clan happens to steal.
As for "these guys contact you if you seem a likely candidate":
So, you'd need multiple people in every language group, in every city, to keep an eye on likely candidates.
And once someone turns down the offer to join, they'd know that the ones who made the offer were in that criminal organization.
There goes the secrecy, straight out the window.
Doing bad stuff to you if you don't join? Ah, so the criminals are not only the only faction with vehicles, but also the only ones with weapons and shields... and law enforcement is just standing around picking their nose while someone gets knocked off in front of them?
Simply would't work unless every player played along, and that requires changing of rules to make it work, so the ooc-organization of it all (among other things) would be possible.
And once that gets changed enough to make it work, some of the coding would follow to accommodate.
And well, then you'd have a completely different game.
And the people who enjoy Cantr because it is Cantr, well, they might not enjoy it being another game.

3. Aha, you bring up communication.
As said, there's the ooc-communication to organize it all so that every player is in on the change in your rp, which is a CR breach.
Then, there's the fact that if radio's are so cheap to get, that law enforcement and other law abiding people who most likely assist the town, will also have radio's.
And yes, it isn't safe from eavesdropping at all.
Anyone in the same room as the radio can hear what's being said, as well as anyone elsewhere who is on the same frequency.
As for the whispering... it's annoying when you're running out of minutes just because your char lights up on that list of chars that you have, just because people keep whispering.
So, unless you want your chars to be killed real fast, let's keep the whispering to a minimum.
Seriously, you'll understand when you play 15 chars, but don't get to check up on 12 of them because whenever you want to switch, you see activity with three of them that makes you have to check up.

Now, on to the crimes:
Theft:
"Use a vehicle (much faster than a walking person) to outrun any law enforcement, and don't use the same thief and/or vehicle twice in the same village, since both can be recognized"
Welllll.... law enforcement has vehicles too... and people do tend to travel, so you'll always get recognized in the end.
Besides, with law enforcement having access to radio's, well, to flog a dead horse here, you'd simply have law enforcement waiting for you in the next place.

"Another solution - if the villagers don't count their goods - would be to set up a spy as a respectable citizen with access to the village warehouse (Assuming they have one. This doesn't work with small villages that store just their goods on the ground, but then the "grab and outdrive" version works) and have him steal small amounts of goods that no one will notice. Then a mafia representative will have to collect it, posing as someone who would need to do business with the spy. See "smuggling" below..."
Uhm.... yeah, nobody would notice the thief trading stuff that he isn't supposed to have... and what if another person also has access to storage, and happens to see it happen?
Spy gets caught, they know which people he traded with in the past, and they'll know when another person comes to trade with them that it's someone from that criminal organization.
Besides, it would mean you steal stuff so slowly, that it'd take too long to really profit from it... or you'd have to steal it fast enough to be noticed, which, well, would be bad for your respected char because he'd then be busted.

"Villages that have every commodity locked up and keep records of how much they own are likely to be safe from theft (you are seen if you pick or break locks, right?). Unless the spy has access to the records..."
And access to the memories of the other townfolk who know how much they stored of everything?

Poaching:
Actually, poaching can be humorous, yeah... I might try and put a twist on that for one of my upcoming chars, in the event of one of my current chars croaking (which might be some time since they all have access to food right now and only one or two are badly wounded).

Smuggling:
Hm, would work if you only let people with keys into your warehouse.
But as soon as they get caught in another town, or killed by wild animals in another place, well, the keys would be up for grabs.
So, you can find an excuse to have an unlocked building, let's say, a shop... but then everyone can come in, and a newspawn wandering in, seeing what goes on, and running outside to tell others... there goes the fence, and just like the theft from storage, there goes the organization because anyone who traded with the fence is now a suspect.

Assassination:
With a bit more thought, there are possibillities.
But yeah, the victim might not be standing still while being hit, and a group of assassins rushing the mayor's home would also make any law enforcer and law abiding citizen in a town want to come in.
Or they'd be waiting outside for your assassins.
Or they just radio the next place to look for the vehicle that your assassins flee in, or for the assassins, if they were recognizable.
Still, with a bit of thought, it is possible to assassinate someone, but yeah, you'd need multiple assassins per target to pull it off fast enough.

Slave trade:
This would require the victims to play along, and well, not everyone is going to be willing to play a slave.
So, you'd have to get rid of those that don't play that way.
Which would ruin the game for lots of players, if they get forced to either play along to someone elses' rules or die.
And it's the freedom to roleplay whatever everyone wants, that holds a lot of Cantr's power.

Espionage:
Ah, but... a lot of people in charge of towns will be keeping stuff in whispers, or in lockable buildings with only those present who need to know what goes on.
This seriously cripples the idea of successful espionage.
Besides, if all secret stuff gets leaked, they'll start to eliminate possibilolities until they come to the only people who would have known about everything that was leaked.
And if they can't find out that way, it would be easy enough to set a trap to find out who the spies are.

Framing:
Ah, but people travel, so if you successfully posed as one person, and you move on, to frame another elsewhere, well, someone from the other town would come to the other town and recognize you.
And what if the victim of a frame is already known in other places so people know that you're not who you claim to be?

All in all, such ideas have, to some extent, been brought up before and usually got shot down or needed a lot more thought.
Well, except for the poaching, I think... which has given me some ideas for a new char.
But that new char would have to be played real well to not end up jailed or killed within the first days of his life.

Edit: Whoa, so many replies while I was writing mine... dang

OOC communication is in no way necessary for any of this - a mafia really is "a clan that happens to steal," if you want to call it that.

In practice, most of Wolf's objections are not as serious as they sound - as I said, most of these tactics have been used successfully at some point. Of course, neither are they as easy to carry out as Hellzon makes it sound. But they're ideas, not plans.

Most times they're successful is because of out of character co-ordination by instant messenger and the sort, which is against the rules.

It isn't necessary to use OOC communication.

No, they're not, but I phrased my comment differently. However, it is being weeded out by the PD's work, or so I hope.

I also don't see why these things are being discussed here rather than an in game context.