Basis for religion/mysticism

[Doug R.]

I know some of you will consider this heresy, but here me out first.

Religions are formed to explain the unexplainable and to provide a power to turn to in times of need. Cantr will never have a religion simply because 1) it is a computer game, so everything is explainable (and bugs get fixed, so don't recur) and 2) the mechanisms provided to contact the powers in times of need are all OOC.

So, my suggestion is simple: Provide a basis for a solid IC Cantr religion by moving the contact mechanisms to the staff into the game.

See a CR breach or a bug? Report it by praying.

You see a man in his twenties praying.

Does an abusive character need to be removed from the game as punishment for some violation?

You see a man in his twenties struck dead by a bolt of lighting from the sky.

I know you'll all hate it, but unless higher powers manifest themselves in-game, once all the bugs are fixed, it will be impossible for any religions to form.

PS: I already roleplay IC bug reports/imaged notes as praying to gods, but that will never be sufficient unless the manifestation comes from the game and not the player.

[SekoETC]

I've been thinking about this too. But in order for this to work, we would need a staff that's actually active and responds to the needs of the players...

[Nalaris]

Alright, I'll be the first to say it. This is a bad idea. Religion is something that I think should be made up in game. The problem with this is, of course, that very few people wish to join such a religion, because they'd much rather max out their hunting skills and harvest stone. Isn't it sad how any game with numbers can revolve around those numbers, even if there's a flimsy roleplay built around it? Anyway, religion should be made by the players, not the game. Otherwards it becomes one of those Tolkien spin-off MUDs with cheap mythologies to try and represent the fact that it's a game in game (which is wasted on your average MUD since no one roleplays).

[Stan]

But this is a society simulator. The way religion has affected our world society cannot be understated.

Perhaps just unexplainable events occurring sometimes. Unpredictable "miracles".

[Floyd]

Cant see that working too well.

[wichita]

Nah, religion should be fine the way it is now. If you see a bug, pray. If you see a change, pray. It's up to other characters to decide wether or not to believe it or not.

Frankly, the main thing holding religion back in cantr is the prevalence of athiest and agnostic players letting their OOC opinions influence the game. It's an unfortunate double standard in my opinion. If a religion IC looks remotely like anything OOC people start bitching about it. I think it is stupid that we have to watch religion like a hawk in character, while things like unorignal governments are ripped off without so much as a passing glance.

End of rant:

As for the suggestion, I say it has already been implemented. Look at Ness and her talk of The Changer on K-Island. Perfect example of this already being performed.

[Doug R.]

Of course, my key points seem to have been completely missed.

1) When all the bugs are fixed and the game is finalized (i.e. when Jos eventually loses interest), there won't be any more changes and hence no more "Changer."

2) Religions based on character-made points of view will never catch. Anything that will catch and spread needs to be rooted in the game mechanism.

Is there enough bugs, changes, and oddities in the game NOW to make a viable basis for a religion? Yes. Will it always be that way? No (see #1). I'm thinking of the long-term well-being of the game.

[Torch]

1) When all the bugs are fixed and the game is finalized (i.e. when Jos eventually loses interest), there won't be any more changes and hence no more "Changer."
...
Is there enough bugs, changes, and oddities in the game NOW to make a viable basis for a religion? Yes. Will it always be that way? No (see #1). I'm thinking of the long-term well-being of the game.

Good points. That'd be like an omnipotent being creating us, performing miracles on a grand scale, sending his son to Earth, allowing him also to perform miracles, sacrificing said son as an atonement for humanity's sins, then deciding not to directly (or at least overtly) perform any more miracles for a couple of millenia, and people still believing in that being as a God. It'd never work.

Merry Christmas!

[Stan]

The reason why it works in real life, Torch, is because it actually happened and was witnessed by reliable people...and I get the sense that you know that.

In this game, miracles never happen. So, no one is going to devote their life to a cause that,

1. Has no benefit for the devotee
2. Never actually happened
3. Could get the devotee killed because they'll be considered crazy

In real life, people are willing to die for Christianity (I use that as an example because I'm Chirstian and Torch used it in his nte) because the miracles happened, they were witnessed and there is eternal reward for believing it (at least that describes me). In game, those dynamics do not exist. A Cantrarians life will not be better for having religion.

[Hellzon]

(At Torch's post.)

Well, the problem is that we know why stuff happens. Even if our charachters don't know it IC, the players still know who made the world, who put the iron in the mountains, and so on...

Basically, there was a period where we didn't know how the world worked, and made up religion to explain it. Cantrians (or - more correctly - their players) haven't had such a period. Therefore, no successful religion, but plenty of science if I'm not mistaken.

/Hellzon, secular heathen

[wichita]

Of course, my key points seem to have been completely missed.

1) When all the bugs are fixed and the game is finalized (i.e. when Jos eventually loses interest), there won't be any more changes and hence no more "Changer."

Trust me, this will not happen. Not saying that ProgD is too incompetent to avoid programming bugs, but there are too many ideas that want to be implemented that Cantr will likely not stop evolving mechanically, so I think this will essentially always be there. If we do reach that point, then we will have likely reached the End of Days.

2) Religions based on character-made points of view will never catch. Anything that will catch and spread needs to be rooted in the game mechanism.

Is there enough bugs, changes, and oddities in the game NOW to make a viable basis for a religion? Yes. Will it always be that way? No (see #1). I'm thinking of the long-term well-being of the game.

Religions will catch when good roleplayers decide to let their characters accept and follow a religion. If you really want a religion to take of you need to recruit good RPers that can develop characters with unique personalities formed by the game world around them.

Not that I am trying to claim to be a fantabulous roleplayer but this is exactly how my priestess character came to find her religion. She spawned in a town full of sleepers and abandoned projects, with notes speaking of the Keeper scattered all around and an existing temple. Wandering in she met the current priestess who gave her food and clothing and shared the ways of the religion with her. She quickly became strong in the faith and still defends it and leads it now.

The Order of the Holy Father (I think I remember it properly off the top of my head ) has been fairly well recieved as well. The main thing limiting its success is, again, poor roleplaying IMnsHO.

[formerly known as hf]

Religion is only one way of explaining certain events - one person may see it as miracle of God, another a mircale of Allah, another will see it as a 'freak of nature', and others might see it as exlplainable by science.
A 'miracle' is only one description - someone else might call it coincidence, another might call it 'paranormal'.

As a society simulator - Cantr should be open to all these interpretations (as it currently is).


By 'hardcoding' religion in any form, it removes some of this autonomy in regards to belief systems. It also reduces the scope of religions that can be formed (not all religions revolve around miracles and prayer).

Miracles are already there - your character only has to see them as such.

And I agree with Witch - people need to be more open with forming and joining religions - the changes in Cantr are very fertile grounds on which to base religious explanations...

[formerly known as hf]

In this game, miracles never happen. So, no one is going to devote their life to a cause that,

Many would argue that miracles never happen in real life, let alone Cantr...

Miracles do happen in Cantr - but what is a deemed a miracle is, as it is in real life, down to the person that experiences it or hears about it

[Stan]

By 'hardcoding' religion in any form, it removes some of this autonomy in regards to belief systems. It also reduces the scope of religions that can be formed (not all religions revolve around miracles and prayer).

Good point.

Miracles do happen in Cantr - but what is a deemed a miracle is, as it is in real life, down to the person that experiences it or hears about it

Good point #2.

Did you eat something special today?

[Agar]

I'm not gong to aruge about what religions in real life have to do with any sort of spirituality, but I have seen one thing that can be a side effect, if not the main goal, of some religions. Power.

Governments in real life control the people. That's what they do. Religions in real life also control the people, but with different motavations. "Don't eat pork, don't drink wine, I don't care if that feels good, it's wrong to do that in that position." Just random thoughts, not trying to single anything out here. These behaviors translate into cantr as well.

A tribe may say it's illegal to gather limestone in a spot, and a church there may say it's a sin to eat the asparagus, for thier "god" made carrots and thier "devil" spawned the aspargus. More restrictions, but they can both work together because they're not stepping on each others toes.

Not many people in cantr believe in things though. It's in part because of thing we know. We KNOW there's nothing for our characters when they die. We KNOW we don't have souls, in peril or otherwise. We KNOW that someone toting religion is probally trying to get power for himself, or take it from the locals somehow. We're all gamers here too, and gamers are a hard lot to sell often too.

Religions don't need a basis for them, especially hardcoded. They just need an audience. Put on a good show.