Gathering limits - ProgD update

[Jur Schagen]

Allright, a little update form the ProgD here. The ProgD is definately listening to you, even though we're not posting all the time... and yes, the system will be altered, along the following lines:

- As a one-time change, there will be a minimum of (current pop divided by three) slots in each city; this should re-balance the relationship between current population and low random slot numbers for existing cities. Expect this to change in the next day or so. NOTE: it will be based on the people in city square at the time of the change, so if you want to get an extra slot for your town, you might want to peep out of you building/vehicle.

- We are looking into implementing KeVes' suggestion - but see some problems he didn't think of, like the solitary mountain dweller suddenly digging op 10K of hematite daily, and the way the enhancing tools work (he suggests counting them as an extra gatherer, but that would mean he'd actually be decreasing his fellow citizens proceeds, which we don't like). This will take some time.

- In conjunction with the RD, we are looking to decrease the nutrition of raw foods, alongside with implementing more cooking methods, for a net gain of nutrition value. This will promote cooperation between farmers and cooks, ideally... sure you can still eat your potatoes raw, but it will be much more efficient to give them to someone who cooks/bakes/whatevers them... for both of you. And before you start screaming that there's no wood to cook where you live, we're looking for alternatives for that too.

Some comments on the philosophical issues raised. This change wasn't implemented primarily to increase trade (though that was intended as a side-effect - more about that later, Agar and others). It was primarily intended for governments to actually have something do. Think about the laws that have existed in most towns, up till now: don't hit anyone, don't steal, and sometimes don't hit animals below four. That was really all that was needed - even though some towns got a bit further than that, due to players having an interest in organizing government, not because game mechanics actually demanded it. This change was primarily intended to give governments the *need* to organize their towns. As Jos has said, the towns should decide on what they want to produce, and who gets to produce it. Apart from that, chars that cannot gather anymore, should look for alternatives for their food supply - i.e., work for someone that does have the food.

I personally feel that the game is ruined by towns with nothing but a bunch of newspawns silently farming carrots. True, these towns would die if their pop was larger than their slot limit. On the other hand, there are more than enough towns with potatoes and 12 slots, and just 4 people living there. If you want to play Cantr the "old style", just go there.

Which brings me to promoting trade. What nobody seems to be thinking about, is to actively look for slots. Sure, they're not available in Drojf or Blojt. But they are bound to be free in DHN or Second Blojt... so why don't you go there? If you gather there and bring the foodstuffs or other commodities back, you are bound to get a good price for them... and believe me, there are more then enough slots for everyone in all regions, if you didn't stick to the one big city you are in right now. As for historical reference, allmost all the Irish that moved to the USA did so because the potato crops failed. They adapted and thought they should move out or they would starve... why doesn't your char think the same? Even if you don't wanna work for someone when you spawn, you have 20 days to look for a free food slot... I'd say there are very few places on the map where free food slots aren't available in that range.

And yes, there are exceptions to this... and yes, some chars are vulnerable to this change, especially newspawns, and yes, there may be increased death rates in some regions... but think about it this way. The absolutely-number-one-above-all-else death cause is the Disease... which is actually another word for the player getting bored. Why are they bored? Could it be that Cantr life is simply too easy? Isn't that decadence, really? You have no time to be bored if you have to make an effort to make your food every day... Kinvoya said this perfectly well, it should be *hard* to survive, not easy. And if you fail? Well, it isn't as if we're talking about poor starving African children here... they're just chars. You take a new spawn and try again.

A special word for our Polish friends here. It is true that the vast amount of Polish players registering over the past few months has led to a situation where there is big overpopulation, without the existing infrastructure to have alternative employment. We are aware of this situation, and will be looking for ways to balance it out. With discussion still going on, I'm afraid I cannot comment yet on the way we will do this, but we are aware of your problems and working on them.

Jur.

[Misty]

which is actually another word for the player getting bored. Why are they bored? Could it be that Cantr life is simply too easy? Isn't that decadence, really? You have no time to be bored if you have to make an effort to make your food every day...

Agreed. However, I can tell you first hand, because my BF had shown interest in Cantr, and he showed his friends, and for them, it was a flop. They went elsewhere, because Cantr was too much of a struggle.

Alexander said it elsewhere, and I have eluded to it, because I hear the conversations among my BF and his friends, that Cantr needs to be MORE FUN.

Yes, I love it, and don't want to leave. But, realisitically, if you want to attract large volumes of new sign up's AND keeeeep them! - - then it has to be more FUN.

I've said it several times.

Food should be a non issue.

Clothing should be a non issue.

At the start of the game, people should be able to get dressed. Perhaps given some "units" to spend on clothing and food for starting out. Only a one time deal at character development of course. But people ENJOY shopping! People ENJOY fashion. People would ENJOY being able to stop at the Main Cantr shop and spend their units on making their new characters individually unique as far as their clothing and body type. Enough units to buy some food to get them on their way so they can focus on playing the game, rather than focusing so much on basic things that should be non issues.

Cantr is not in the cave man era. We have cars and motorcycles. If we have those we have electricity, if we have that we also have gasoline. So, we are not back in the cave man days. Why are we still walking around with loin cloths?

This is what turned my BF and his friends off to Cantr. They closed the browser and to my knowledge, have not returned.

PS (before anyone comments: this was NOT a rant

[formerly known as hf]

Units?

What, some kind of Cantr-wide currency?

Ergh...

As for the update - thanks a lot Jur - would it be a breach to drag loads of people from inside buildings? (Guess so...)

You mentined KeVes' Suggestion? Where is that - not sure I remember it in full...

[SekoETC]

Sacriledge!

For most Cantrians it IS a stoneage world, they just don't realize it because behind the characters is a 21st century mind. If you want technology level, trade level, society level to develop, you must do something. Nothing comes for free as a starter bonus, you may get stuff from friendly people or dead people but in the beginning someone must have worked for it.

Ok since characters start at 20 it's weird they haven't gathered anything in their previous life but how could they have more clothes than the old characters around them? Who would make those clothes, god? It's already easy, food doesn't rot, clothes don't need patching or washing. If it was my game, I'd make it harder.

[Jur Schagen]

As for the update - thanks a lot Jur - would it be a breach to drag loads of people from inside buildings? (Guess so...)

Yup, the PD is still discussing if that should result in a 20-day or a 200-day ban... nah just joking. I'd better do this quick, I hear, with the famous Cantrian inventivity around...

You mentined KeVes' Suggestion? Where is that - not sure I remember it in full...

Slots are to be an overall max total on gatherers, like, if 10 people are digging on 8 slots everyone get 8/10 or 80% of production.

Misty, not all games are popular for all players... by the sound of it, your BF would never play a shooter while they are among the most popular games out there... oh and I'm not saying Cantr should become a shooter, definately not. But the design team sure feels it should be a harder game than it currently is...

As for initial clothes, Seko said it: blasphemy! If everyone would already have clothes, what would be your incentive to make them yourself?

Jur.

[wichita]

FUN is what you make of it. Quite frankly the people that can't have fun in Cantr right now are either too busy, impatient, or have no imagination - and frankly most of us don't want those people diluting the game. There are thousands of games out there that can provide that for them. Cantr is special and unique, so why should we dilute the quality of our free game just to boost enrollment, when the only advantage of having those people in the game is more sleepers and more crappy roleplayers?

That is a bit more harsh than I would like it to be, but hopefully you can see my points in there somewhere!

Thanks for the update Jur. That was laid out very nicely.

P.S: Link to KeVes's suggestion

[julie2]

Umm…One big important point…can’t you make it proportional to the total population of the town , rather than just the outdoor poulation? Otherwise you’re penalising those towns which already have a pretty good proportion of (indoor) manufacuring workers and ( probably absent) traders. , which is desirable, isn’t it? Alright , there’s no way to count the traders, but you could at least count the indoor people…couldn’t you?

Aart from that, I think Misty has a point. We all have out theories about why other players get bored, It’s not safe to base major decisions on those theories. Why not listen to what people are actually saying instead.? The two major reasons for quitting , as given on this board, seem to be:

A) I don’t like the latest programming change (usually because it’s peceived as making life more difficult)
B) I don’t have time anymore (because Cantr can be quite a big drain on players’ time, already)

Of course these preople might not be representative, but then they might be, It’s just about all we have to go on, in terms of solid information, and it sems rather high-handed to ignore it,. Making the game that bit more complex and demanding would seem to be the last thing that most of those quitters want

Maybe the laws are simple, but government duties can be very onerous, nonetheless, and it’s usually only the most active players who are willing to take them on. Surely enforcing the Law is only one aspect of the job? Theres also budgeting, overseeing the distribution of public property, making sure that nobody starves, etceteras. Cantrian social organisation will never have anything approaching IRL complexity for the simple reason that Cantrians have such limited time in which to act and communicate. I’m sure that most Cantriam officials would rather spend that time making major decisions, initiating new ventures, and indulging in role-play than in dragging newspawns away from illegal projects.

[wichita]

Instead of focusing on why players are leaving, why don't we focus on what is making the rest of us stay? Cantr is growing in numbers, so it seems the people leaving might just be a vocal minority.

And to point out, it usually isn't long before we start to see those people who quit because of the latest programming change poke their head back in the forum door. Cantr. You know you want it!

[Misty]

Cantr is special and unique, so why should we dilute the quality of our free game just to boost enrollment, when the only advantage of having those people in the game is more sleepers and more crappy roleplayers?

That's a veeeeeeery good point! I am happy with the game, I love it. Yeah, if there was a main cantr store at character development, i would truly enjoy shopping for my clothes. BUT, as wichita said, there is a certain TYPE of person who is desirable to have playing Cantr. And perhaps wichita is right. Maybe if there were more features, more things that the average person considers to be FUN, then maybe it would dilute the quality of roll playing. *looks over at her BF and his friend* *looks back at the screen* No, I would not see my BF roll playing well. I wouldn't even really WANT him to be in the world of Cantr, and I wouldn't wish it on any of the current players here! *sigh*

[Agar]

Food should be a non issue.

Clothing should be a non issue.

WHAT? You want to bankrupt the farmers by taking away thier livelyhood? Cantr is one of the few games I know where you *need* to eat. Seriously. It's part of what makes this unique. Food should always be an issue. Try going one day in your own real life and no eating. Then you can tell me how much food should be a non issue

Tailors have hard to work long and hard ever since clothing was made available to the game. There was a time when there was NO clothing and everything you see now has been due to the hard work of those people. If you're overly worried that you don't have nice clothes, just roleplay you dressed in tatters, as its "Nothing worth mentioning" and not naked like some juvenile child.

[julie2]

This change ...was primarily intended for governments to actually have something do.

....The absolutely-number-one-above-all-else death cause is the Disease... which is actually another word for the player getting bored. Why are they bored? Could it be that Cantr life is simply too easy? Isn't that decadence, really? You have no time to be bored if you have to make an effort to make your food every day... Kinvoya said this perfectly well, it should be *hard* to survive, not easy. .

I wouldn't obsess onthe reasons why players quit , except if the Prog Dept are going to act on the above assumption (as they clearly have) then we have to ask if it really holds water? If the real reason for players quitting is virtually oposite to the reason Jur cites, then we're going to find that inreasingly frantic attempts by the Prog Dept to "fix" the perceived problem only spoil the game for more and more players . I wouldn't actually mind an "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude, to this problem, but that's not what we're looking at here. We're looking at "It IS broke, let's Fix it" When it doesn't work, then the Prog Dept is going to think that they haven't gone far enough in making life diffullt, and then throw in a few more difficulties. Is that the direction we really want to go in?

[Misty]

WHAT? You want to bankrupt the farmers by taking away thier livelyhood? Cantr is one of the few games I know where you *need* to eat. Seriously. It's part of what makes this unique. Food should always be an issue.

*laughs* No dear, no no no. You've misenterpreted my point. Of course people still need food. But it shouldn't be an issue as far as monopolizing it by adding limitations.

Again, let me remind cantrerians, that Cantr is an un-developed, newly emerging world. The resources are abundant. Food should be a non issue, in that, if someone doesn't have anything to trade for it, or any money to buy any, then at least they can always resort to picking berries, or digging up some roots, or even picking any one of the thousands of various types of leaves, grasses and foliage that are cunsumable.

[Misty]

I wouldn't obsess on the reasons why players quit,

Now, to those who work so very hard to keep Cantr going, and growing, please don't fry me for this. (I'm going to get fried, I can feel it coming). But I only want to interject a little bit of Misty logic to what Julie is saying in her above post.

I don't think they should obsess about it either. But I do think they should look in to it. All over these forums I see complaints about the "sleeping sickness", dead bodies, players who just disappear. And, I have seen some of the Cantr leaders complaining of such.

They come on the board and say they want to improve this and that, and they assure us that they are listening, and, I believe they are, heck, we can see they are. But, I would think at some point, those who are at the helm of the Cantr game, would start to scratch their heads in wonder as to why they say they want to improve. Why? To bring in more players? To keep more players longer? Or maybe simply to make it a more fun rpg? Which automatically brings in the two former suggestions.

A topic would be added to the forums, straight way, if it were me running things, and that topic would ask players to tell exactly what they do not like about Cantr? Why have you decided to, or why are you deciding to leave?

The suggestions topic ALMOST delves into that topic. These are people who are interested in Cantr, and have ideas which they would like to see implimented, probably because they think it would be enjoyable, or more fun. Now reference all of the flat out "no!'s - - Hurriedly typed in, with little or no consideration. (granted some of them are worthy of a response like that, buuuuut, I see some good ideas there.... )

I am looking over the evidence which presents itself right here on the boards, in the game itself, and from what I saw first hand when my BF and his friends waved a hand at the monitor and said, ah, screw that. And I am thinking that the evidence bekons a little closer look.

Now before the people who work very, very hard at Cantr get upset with me, let me remind them, that I think Cantr is awesome! There is a certain type of personality who can really get in to Cantr, just the way it stands. Me for one, and all of the rest of those of us who love the game, and who stick around to play it!

But I am right now, merely responding to some posts which have been made, and not just recently, eluding to the idea that Cantr might be having some troubles keeping players, along with the players dept, and the programmers dept, asking what they can do to make Cantr better.

I think the first step regarding that issue, is to really take a close look at things which are right there, available to look at.

1) Body count?
2) Body count increasing? Decreasing?
3) Inactive "sleeping" players who disappear never to be seen again?
4) Reasons for players being unsatisfied? - - Right now there isn't a topic devoted to that, but, some evidences can be found in the posts - right in the suggestions topic, as well as the rest of the board.

And maybe there are some other questions that can be asked. *reaches for her drink*

But the point is, to look at the evidence which exists, and let that evidence lead to the answers, not being influenced by opinions or wants.

[formerly known as hf]

I would somewhat agree that it's not actually Cantr being too easy that is putting off new players, but that it's too hard.

It is like nothing else out there that I know of. The level of patience required in Cantr, in terms of making things, but also in terms of role-playing, is very high. I can imagine that the average person who searches for 'free online RPG' and comes across Cantr will try it and immediately head off again.

Cantr requires you to scratch your way up from the carrot patch with your bare fingernails and nothing more than whatever your character is wearing that's not even worth mentioning.

Food and clothing are very important issues - in what other game is 'farming' a worthwhile job? (Except the poor farmer's boy who finds that he's actually the orphan of a norse demi-god and the sould saviour of the world) It is this level of detail that makes Cantr so great

It takes a huge amount of patience, far beyond what most people would be willing to contribute to a game. But, still, Cantr continues to grow. If we did want a game that keeps a large number of the people it attracts, well, the game wouldn't be Cantr

The resource limit - yes, it does make the game harder, especially for newspawns. But, in the long run, if anything, it might eventually start helping newspawns, with newspawns immediately being told that if they bugger off and dig up some potatoes from a neighbouring town, they might be given something to wear. It fosters organisation, which, as anyone who's part of a well-run organisation in Cantr, does greatly increase the 'wealth' of your character.

[Surly]

As a one-time change, there will be a minimum of (current pop divided by three) slots in each city; this should re-balance the relationship between current population and low random slot numbers for existing cities. Expect this to change in the next day or so.

Considering that would double several cities limits... that is a good change

NOTE: it will be based on the people in city square at the time of the change, so if you want to get an extra slot for your town, you might want to peep out of you building/vehicle.

That is utterly ridiculous. For a start its a CR breach... although considering the circumstances it probably wouldn't be. But it really should be all people in a city... if you can get avalue for the stats, why not use that value here?