Cantr II Discussion Forum

Jos Elkink (2005-07-23) wrote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To stimulate the Cantr economy, I just introduced a significant new feature. From now on, each location has a - randomly assigned - maximum number of resource gatherers. This will not affect any current activity, but when you try to join a new digging or farming project, there will be check how many people are already farming or digging, and if the maximum is reached, you cannot continue. You can still start the project, but you cannot work on it. This should seriously increase trade between different locations. This is the kind of feature that is very simple to implement technically, but difficult to test with few players. So it`s somewhat `in testing`. If the game balance is badly damaged, we can still retract the change, or alter the limits.

I think we'll see the emergence of more dictatorial governments off the back of this, not necessarily trade.

Town Leader: Hmm... I can't gather any XXX. *they look around* Ahh, a newspawn.

You see newspawn dragged to prison

Town Leader: Now I can gather XXX... *he smiles to himself*

I dont know if i like it.. One of my charries is in charge of a town with very basic resources, the towns just getting going and so it has no machines with wich to produce luxuary goods such as cloth etc etc, So now, instead of sending people off to collect resources from nieghboring towns, i'll have to find some suckers to trade potatoes, corn and sand to, in a region rich in potatoes corn and sand... Sigh...

*Sits back, props his feet up on his desk and waits for the screaming to start.* Oh boy is this ever going to start a good riot. *Puts on his riot gear and laughs* I like it and think it will work out very nicely.

Although it is a bit inconvenient at first - especially since it will be annoying that if you temporarily drop a project, you cannot rejoin because others are working - it should lead to a lot more organisation and trade.

Yes, it can lead to dictatorships, but it can also lead to democratic forms of organisation. But it allows for much less anarchy, which is part of the game anyway.

I don't see how it would not lead to trade. If your location has a rare resource like hematite, but also food, then it would be wise to only dig hematite, and leave food production to other towns. Why would that not lead to trade?

For years already I've been searching for a solution to introduce land scarcity. I had complicated ideas like fields etc., but this is a far easier implementation (the original idea is from Jur, but I take all credit for imbalance or errors ...). Without land scarcity there is no incentive to create political regimes larger than one location, and there is very limited reason to trade interregionally for basic goods like food or stone or ...

I think this change opens up loads of opportunities for politics and military operations. Up to now, the only incentive to attack would be power-hungriness - now even peaceful minded people might decide that neighbouring states are harming them, and therefor decide to enlarge their power ... Really, I think this should seriously encourage the economy, politics, and military affairs ...

Very nicely put Jos, I like this change very much. Especially with some of my characters.

I never said it was bad.

I like dictatorships... I yearn for the old days of Lad...

Jos wrote:So it`s somewhat `in testing`.

Isn't the game always in "testing"
So what did this do exactly? If there are too many people gathering one towns resourse, then anyone else trying to start as new resource gathering project will get denied? Are we still able to work on projects of other kinds?
All these questions. Will they be answered? Stay tuned to find out!

It seems to me like a form of land scarcity in itself. If there's so many people gathering carrots that you can't gather carrots, obviously the people gathering carrots are gathering carrots all over the carrot patch and there's no room for you.

Does that apply to every resource? It makes sense that way.

What about Manufacturing projects and building projects? Are they affected?

It shouldn't if I interpret the message properly. Only the gathering of raw resources is restricted to a certain number of workers. I am guessing this will have a fairly big shockwave at first, but it will be good once we adjust and actually get the trade started. And I guess land scarcity is a good way to look at it.

If the maximum number of workers is a constant, this will really only change the economic dynamics of the large cities, right? This will work out well rather quickly then, I imagine. If you think about it, if you have that many people in one spot, not everyone can or should be a farmer. There is just no space a no need for that much food. I am anxious to see if the larger cities will finally start trading more with the smaller farming communities on their outskirts.

For some of these trade opertunities others will need vehicles. Of course I suppose this would still encourage trade for the parts but it's still going to take a long time for it all to balance out...

wichita, you got my thinking right ... Cities should start depending on farming areas, trading centres should become more important, etc.

Yes, you could say only big cities are affected, but some rough calculations by me suggest that an estimated 300 people are currently working on projects they couldn't work on right now if this had been implemented earlier. So a lot of gathering is actually going on that can't with the new system, or has to move, or be replaced by trading. The tweaking part - how high to set the number of gatherers in a place - is difficult to do, of course, and might need adjustment.

Land scarcity is definitely the way to think about it.

About what it affects:
- only resource gathering, not machine / building / repairing / etc.
- only participation in projects, not creating projects
- the number of people working on digging projects is counted, not the number of active projects
- people that are currently working on a project won't be stopped - but if they stop now, they will in many cases (about 300) not be able to immediately restart again
- the number of slots stays constant per city ... I was thinking about making small, rare random variations, but probably not ... there is one number for all resources together ... the number is randomly set, within a range depending on the type of location

Hope that answers everything.

My understanding of this is that each area has an overall maximum number of resources gathers regardless of which resource is being gathered .

(EDIT: Above confirmed with the simultaneous post by Jos above )

If this is the case, I'd actually like to see this extend to each resource within an area having a different maximum number of potential gatherers . That large hematite vein could accomaodate 10 workers but the sole nut tree has only room for 2 gathers .

Not only a more realistic simulation , but also would help lead to resource specilisation of areas .

Chris Johnson wrote:If this is the case, I'd actually like to see this extend to each resource within an area having a different maximum number of potential gatherers . That large hematite vein could accomaodate 10 workers but the sole nut tree has only room for 2 gathers .

Not only a more realistic simulation , but also would help lead to resource specilisation of areas .

I love this idea. That would be a great refinement.

Chris Johnson wrote:If this is the case, I'd actually like to see this extend to each resource within an area having a different maximum number of potential gatherers . That large hematite vein could accomaodate 10 workers but the sole nut tree has only room for 2 gathers .

That was more or less the original idea, but then I decided that that would ruin the whole point. Yes, it would stimulate some trade, because it might be cheaper to find something in one place than in another ... but it would also remove most of the need for political organisation. Now, someone has to decide who is allowed to do what, which is exactly what creates the game. At least, if not everybody blindly follows their leaders