Cantr II Discussion Forum

I know the world of Cantr is huge and all, but maybe it's just too small?

Because of Quillanoi, the Lad. empire, etc. there really isn't much hope for would be leaders is there?

How wrong you could be. It takes time, but I have characters that have moved up the political ladder just by being around. There is turnover at the top, or at least within the positions of power. Stick around and get involved. Some places it is easier than others. I have actually had characters turn down advancement because they weren't interested in moving up.

Besides, Cantr is huge ... the fact that you have seen only a few locations doesn't mean there are only a few ...

And 80 people in a city is not really that big, either, if you build a more complex social structure ...

It is too small. Cantr should ALWAYS be bigger. But it isn't too small for it's population, which is more what you mean.

Turnover near the top, or opportunity for promotion, can be really slow, particularly from the perspective of a new player. But anyone can move up through organizations, just by working for them and somewhat active...then when they need something done, you're the one who they look to. I've had a character who, in less than 20 years and without doing anything underhanded has come to power over an immensely powerful group...another moved up even faster in a major government. Being highly active helps a lot. Being reliably active probably helps more.

The thing about 'would-be leaders' is that they mostly don't understand that they aren't some chosen one, fated to do everything better than anyone else and so on. So they try to run for Quill presidency when they're 21, or ask how to become a town leader right after they spawn, or create a company with no resources, plans, or members. In extreme cases, they try to overthrow the government (or at least direct it) with their 'briliant' rhetoric and ideas...I can think of (I believe) one player who has done this more than once.

The other glitch is that a lot of them want to lead just for the sake of leading, or for the sake of power. They don't have plans, nor do they offer any benefits to the people whose support they seek. Often they don't pay attention long enough to notice that they're trying to supplant a much more powerful, established order.

If you want to start at the top, you need to come up with something that's actually a reasonably good idea, preferably that hasn't already been done..."use you all for slave labor untill I can make steel, then arm you" doesn't fly in civilized areas becouse there are already companies with better resources that do the same thing. If you don't mind being short on population, you could go to the borderlands. No one's bothered to fill the niches out there. Most places have a frontier somewhere (not the K island, so much.)

If you want to get to the top other than by election after establishing yourself as trustworthy and reliable or by coming in at the ground level...probably you're going down. There are better qualified people than you for the job, and you probably can't convince people otherwise. But then, what made you think you could just sieze the reins like that without any support or power, anyway?

The Industriallist wrote: Being reliably active probably helps more.

That's the real key to rapid advancement, but by rapid I'm talkign about 4-8 years for a "good" position and 10-15 for a "high" position. When a number of people are up for a spot it's normally the oldest that ends up with it, unless they're known to sleep alot. You can get lucky though, sometimes a spot needs to be filled <i>now</i> and there is no one available or the char making the decision wants a younger person for a specific reason (like if the older ones are believed to be corrupted) but even then being active and reliable is the real decision maker.

I find it strange why so few demand actual democracy. Many places holds elections when they need a new leader, but after that they pretty much rule for the rest of their lives.

Holding regular elections would be a good way to keep the people interested in the affairs of their town.

Pirog wrote:I find it strange why so few demand actual democracy. Many places holds elections when they need a new leader, but after that they pretty much rule for the rest of their lives.

Well, it's a mix of 'if it works, don't change it'; 'I know I'll be elected, and I don't want to have to run again'; and 'getting people to vote is such a pain, let's not do it much'. And from what I've seen senior cantr characters don't have domocratic tendencies, as a rule.

Pirog wrote:Holding regular elections would be a good way to keep the people interested in the affairs of their town.

I would say that's not true...I think Kroner knows something about that. How nearly impossible it can be just to get people to run (other than witless newspawns/visitors) or vote in one election. Still, I would think if a system were designed without self-interest it would probably have regular elections. Though the Drojf system isn't unsound, either. (Elections any time a pettition for them is passed, or when replacements are needed.)

Pirog wrote:I find it strange why so few demand actual democracy. Many places holds elections when they need a new leader, but after that they pretty much rule for the rest of their lives.

Real democracy is great for RL, but it is very inefficent way of doing things and just because someone is able to win a "popularity contest" doesn't mean they know what they're doing. On the other hand, someone who is willing to do whatever it takes to hold control despite what anyone thinks about it, and is completely unwilling to give it up short of death, is in my opinion just as unqualified to be a real leader. The perfect leader, in my opinion, is someone who can gain the "popular vote" simply by being who they are and doing things right, but is willing to give it all up, if nessacary, for the good of the majority.

I would say that's not true...I think Kroner knows something about that. How nearly impossible it can be just to get people to run (other than witless newspawns/visitors) or vote in one election.

But if no new people was interested in running the current leaders could remain. You could even have a system where a certain amount of people must vote to change the government...if there is a will there is a way.

Real democracy is great for RL, but it is very inefficent way of doing things and just because someone is able to win a "popularity contest" doesn't mean they know what they're doing.

But that is how it is now. Someone gets elected and then run for the rest of their life even if they don't do anything good for the govenment. Look at places like Siom, certain times in Krif etc.
It isn't even possible to vote these drowsy and non-working people out from the government. Most of them works on personal projects, like building cars for themselves etc. with government resources...but noone seems to react.

Yeah, the opportunitites for leadership and advancement are endless in the world as it is. I have one char who essentially "inherited" a small town because it's leaders spontaneously died one day.

I have several other chars who are gaining positions of leadership as they work in various small communities.

There are also a tonne of lightly or uninhabited areas for someone to start a place of their own.

Pirog wrote:
But that is how it is now. Someone gets elected and then run for the rest of their life even if they don't do anything good for the govenment. Look at places like Siom, certain times in Krif etc.
It isn't even possible to vote these drowsy and non-working people out from the government. Most of them works on personal projects, like building cars for themselves etc. with government resources...but noone seems to react.

Yeah, I have to agree with that, I haven't seen any major "city" projects started <i>anywhere</i> for a pretty long while. I think the last one in Siom was when the resource van was built. But, if the citizens sit and let it happen without saying anything then they're just as much to blame for it as anyone else. AFter all, a leader isn't a leader without people to lead.

Yeah, okay, people could still become leaders, but there isn't enough room to start even a small city, they are all already taken or the resources arent sufficient to start one.

There are many places with little construction and less industry. Some of them even have resources enough to be potentially worth setting up a business or base in. You just have to go off the beaten path a bit. The spawn-point system created wilderness areas on the old continents that are essentially empty and unknown, but highly valuable.

This may not be true on the K island, because it's such a tiny place. From there, if you want a new place you have to cross the sea.

Of of course you could try to build a city on an unpeopled island. That might take a lot of work, because first you have to find one...

One of my characters has been wandering through a chain of mountains, and just about every place she comes across is completely empty or only has one or two people. So mountains seem like the ideal place to go if you're looking on starting a new community. True, except for a few animals most don't have any food, but that's what trading is for.

There are places with coal, limestone, regular stone AND food that are practically deserted...