@%$%%@ thieves! (rant)

[Lumera]

I've already seen at least three people do this, today alone. Just show up out of the blue, grab everything that's not nailed down and leave without a word to anybody. Why do people do that? It's so freakin' annoying, not to mention a guaranteed way to get killed. And why take the notes? That's what really gets me, they're not even trying to give their character a boost, they just want to inconvenience and irritate as many people as possible.

Sorry for blowing up like this, but it really pisses me off. These people aren't interested in Cantr, all they do is get their kicks out of disrupting the players who actually do care about the game; I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same people doing it over and over again.

As far as I'm concerned stealing like that ought to be considered a CR breach; they're not even pretending to RP their character, they give no explanation for their actions, all it is is OOC griefing. *sigh* I mean, heck, at the very least they could glance around to see if anybody's watching, or gloat as they're leaving. I don't expect a theatrical production here, but it would be nice if for once one of them would be IC about it...

Okay, done ranting. I feel better now.

[Surly]

Hear, hear.

There's a place for 'professional' thieves, in my opinion. But these petty thieves are just stupid.

Make it a CR breach, and save our souls!!

Ahem.

[The Industriallist]

It is, and then it isn't really. If I were going to rob a town, I wouldn't say anything, explain my reasons, or look around to see if the 20 people standing watching everything are looking at me. I would snatch and run just like that.

If I were trying to harrass a town, I would steal their notes. Sometimes that can even do some real damage.

But you're right that most of the time there's nothing anywhere to suggest that these characters have a purpose or identity other than nuisance. Note theives especially. Repetitive spawn, grab, run behavior from a player definitely would suggest some kind of breach.

[Pirog]

In most cases it is just people who aren't fond of their spawn place and wants to kill of their characters. Report them to the Players Department.

[Pulpcatcher]

If you leave your shit lying in the street is it any surprise it gets taken?

I don't understand the attitude of some players whereby if something is picked up off the ground (usually a local resource) then the character taking the item is a thief and must be pursued to the death. If something belongs to a character then it's in their inventory not in the street.

I'm not a player who has any thief characters and I'm not advocating anti-social styles of play but I really don't see the problem. This phenomenon is an effect not a cause. The whole thing needs to be looked at objectively – our ideas about theft and crime come from our RL knowledge and opinions. What’s your property anyway?

Sometimes a character dies and his or her belongings are left on the ground. Say I’m not around at the time and another player has their character pick up the whole bounty –weapons, clothes, keys to vehicles etc. What do I think? ‘Lucky bastard! If only I’d been online’ But then there’ll be another player whose character announces ‘Get that guy, he stole those things.’ Like they owned them? No – the player’s just jealous, they want the things for their own character. Suddenly you have this mob mentality going on where everybody pursues the one ‘thief’. It’s greed – I don’t like to see that at all.

My message: if it’s not in your inventory, if you don’t have the key to it, or if you didn’t initiate the project – then it’s not yours.

[InsaneIrony]

I was just about to post another one of these threads...
What really bothers me is when while chasing down the thief, some complain that the town is being unreasonable in killing them...

[rklenseth]

Let me remind everyone that ownership of items, resources etc... are not programmed in game and are decided by the society or culture created in games.

I don't understand the attitude of some players whereby if something is picked up off the ground (usually a local resource) then the character taking the item is a thief and must be pursued to the death. If something belongs to a character then it's in their inventory not in the street.

Just because the item or resource wasn't in an inventory doesn't mean it didn't belong to anyone. This is not programmed. The ownership of said item or resource is determined by the society and culture as well as determined by the morals of that society or culture. So in one place it might not be a crime to pick up resources or items off the ground (and they do exist) and in other it is a crime to take things off the ground depending on how ownership is determined there.

Sometimes a character dies and his or her belongings are left on the ground. Say I’m not around at the time and another player has their character pick up the whole bounty –weapons, clothes, keys to vehicles etc. What do I think? ‘Lucky bastard! If only I’d been online’ But then there’ll be another player whose character announces ‘Get that guy, he stole those things.’ Like they owned them? No – the player’s just jealous, they want the things for their own character. Suddenly you have this mob mentality going on where everybody pursues the one ‘thief’. It’s greed – I don’t like to see that at all.

You could be right in a sense but also very wrong. Some towns (Quillanoi I know as one) have laws in place in that if someone should die then the any resources, items etc... owned by that person is either owned by the government or if the person had a will it is given the person or persons in the will. Other places like Ladvicitavoi believe that everything is owned by the state so thus taking anything off the ground is stealing from the state. It could also be greed but greed on the side of the character not the player.

My message: if it’s not in your inventory, if you don’t have the key to it, or if you didn’t initiate the project – then it’s not yours.

You are wrong in making this statement. OWNERSHIP is not programmed into the game and will never be. Ownership can only be defined by the society or culture.

Plus the reason why people above were complaining is that these thieves (or what some of us older players call the infamous note thieves) steal all the notes and then run. Players mainly do this to get their character killed because they don't like the spawning location which is a Capitial Rule breach. It is common practice by governments in game to put notes on the ground advising people of the laws as well as common practice for businesses to advertise their product.

[rklenseth]

:shock: I was just about to post another one of these threads...
What really bothers me is when while chasing down the thief, some complain that the town is being unreasonable in killing them...

That is a character opinion. If all of your characters think that common thieves should just be killed then maybe you should about making characters with different personalities.

One of my most famous characters, Easle Quathak (especially in his later years), was against most violence especially against those that stole a little bit of food or what not and advocated the prison system.

On the other hand one of my other famous characters, Sester Gartaf, believed that everyone committing a crime or inferior to the people of Ladvicitavoi should be killed.

[Psycho Pixie]

pixies 2 cents:

i agree that if it isnt in your inventory, and you didnt work the project, or you never had any hand in making that exact item. it isnt yours, and you should stop crying about it being stolen.

example. some time ago, I had a charry in a town on the K island. someone there died and dropped a bunch of stuff, including an iron shield and some other very valuable odds and ends. My charry clearly announced to everyone publicly that she was picking this stuff up because it was valuable, and that if it actually DID belong to someone other then the dead guy, she would give it up. She then went back to working her project and I myself was away from my computer for 2 days.

When I got back, people had attacked her, locked her up and told her she would be killed if she didnt return the items to this man... who CLAIMED he was a friend of the charry that died and dropped the items.

my charry was being a good girl when she picked up the shyt. ... so to attack her and hurt her for staying IN TOWN after picking up items and stating clearly that she WOULD RETURN THEM pissed me off.

of course, later someone came to town and killed someone or something and the whole town got re-structured, but the least they could have done is compensated her for the harrassment when she was obviously not a thief, all they did was keep her locked up until she gave up everything, and offer her a bit of healing food....

she lost time working on the project she was set to work, she lost faith, as a charry does, in the people she had to deal with. and now of course, is scarred for life because a town full of asses attacked her for being a good girl.


'nough said.

Pixie

[Bowser]

There is no right, there is no wrong... there is only player reaction to player actions. One of my characters was given permission to work on a coal drill. The project was complete, my character took the coal from the ground, thanked the people and left. A woman chased me down the path and said using the coal drill was restricted, she attacked me and said if I ever returned, I would be killed on sight.

If I ever do return, I must make sure to find the man that gave me permission before the woman who didn't know I had permission kills me. Its social interaction and the rules of the town. Of course we all can vent and rant about it if we see it as unjust, but justice is subjective and dependant on the laws and customs of each region.

[rklenseth]

There is no right, there is no wrong... there is only player reaction to player actions. One of my characters was given permission to work on a coal drill. The project was complete, my character took the coal from the ground, thanked the people and left. A woman chased me down the path and said using the coal drill was restricted, she attacked me and said if I ever returned, I would be killed on sight.

If I ever do return, I must make sure to find the man that gave me permission before the woman who didn't know I had permission kills me. Its social interaction and the rules of the town. Of course we all can vent and rant about it if we see it as unjust, but justice is subjective and dependant on the laws and customs of each region.

Exactly what I was trying to get at but worded better.

[Nick]

Well put, Bowser.
I agree. If you grow up in a town that kills note theives, that should naturally be your opinion about them. However, if you are raised in a society where the people with the best weapons rule all, you may try to take power if you find a sabre.

[Lumera]

I don't understand the attitude of some players whereby if something is picked up off the ground (usually a local resource) then the character taking the item is a thief and must be pursued to the death. If something belongs to a character then it's in their inventory not in the street.

If there are notes that clearly say 'Do not pick things up off of the ground, that's stealing' and 'Unclaimed items belong to the government', then I don't understand the attitude of players who still think they can take whatever they want and get away with it. And what about buildings? In real life is it okay for me to walk into somebody's house and take their stuff, and then tell the police it's not stealing because if it belonged to somebody it should have been in their pocket? Nothing of mine was stolen, I wasn't "jealous" or anything like that, these were things that belonged to other people and were under government protection until they were picked up by the people who gathered them.

But honestly, I think you missed my point. I actually think it's a good thing that characters can be thieves; you're going to have thieves in Cantr just like in real life, it would be unrealistic to expect otherwise, and if it weren't allowed it would take away a lot of the incentive for governments and police forces.

But what bugs me is the OOC way most people go about it. When people just spawn in and start grabbing stuff without ever saying a word to anybody, that's not roleplaying. It's the player stealing to be annoying (or to get killed and start somewhere else, as someone else mentioned), not the character doing it for any IC reason. I would love to see people roleplay real thieves, or roving bandits, or anything like that, it would add a lot to the game. But that would actually take time; getting weapons and gaining the government's trust, plotting an escape route out with your partners before pulling off your big heist, etc.

A note thief never intends to survive long enough to roleplay an actual thief, their "character" has no personality or reason for being other than to piss other people off. And if everyone is supposed to start off as a kind of blank slate (at least that's the impression I've gotten from reading other threads,) I don't see how that the sudden desire to loot buildings and steal everthing in sight can be anything but OOC.

[The Sociologist]

A note thief never intends to survive long enough to roleplay an actual thief, their "character" has no personality or reason for being other than to piss other people off. And if everyone is supposed to start off as a kind of blank slate (at least that's the impression I've gotten from reading other threads,) I don't see how that the sudden desire to loot buildings and steal everthing in sight can be anything but OOC.

Maybe it's in their genes. OK, so they aren't really roleplaying, but from the social perspective they inadvertently end up playing crackhead trash.

Any attempt to control this via social methods will damage the game's stated design objectives, in my opinion. However, one possibility to control the worst excesses of note-stealing might be "shop windows", part of a second "conspicuous consumption" post I'm preparing for the Suggestions area... Uh oh

Meanwhile...

You see a man in his twenties knocking on a shop window with a crowbar...
.

[The Industriallist]

Or signage, as has been discussed in the past but never implemented. Or just recopying the notes from your backups as needed.

But if someone is caught spawn-grab-running I hope the PD will have a word with them...They do create a somewhat interesting force-of-nature type pressure on cantr societies, but the way it's done is bad for the underlying concept of social simulation through roleplay.

And very much uh oh