Strictly Medieval vs. Advancing Technologies

[Pirog]

I applaud any ideas made to keep this game in it's medieval setting!
*hides from the truth*

[The Industriallist]

I applaud any ideas made to keep this game in it's medieval setting!
*hides from the truth*

I agree completely.

By more resources you mean more of the same resources, right? Not defeating the whole purpose by adding iron...

[Anthony Roberts]

The only thing staying in the medieval setting is Weapons and Protection, since we don't want insta-kill weapons and macho-defending protection items.

The rest of the game will develop into new time eras as the game progresses. This is to help simulate technology trees in growing civilizations. Starting civilizations will have the most basic of tools, where developed locations may have pollution producing industries. That's the entire reason why Cantr isn't stuck in one time era, and it's a GOOD thing that it's not. If eras didn't expand, everyone would be the same, and there'd be no trading of technology between people, no discrimitory people towards those lesser than them, and no thieves running around trying to acquire the best of resources.

The game will always continue to develop in technologies, wishing to hold it back, is wishing to limit your characters development.

[Pirog]

I think it's a much to big ambition that in the end will ruin much of the game...it's sad, because the huge amount of time and effort it takes to make a game progess into a modern society could be spent making this a supreme medieval RPG game instead.

I think a lot of people will start to drop out of the game the day the pirate Ronad McDonald rides into town on his skateboard, dressed in a hemp tunic, jeans and Nike sneakers, armed with his state of the art sabre.
It will just get too weird...

[The Industriallist]

I really have to disagree. No one has ever really 'developed' there way through what was already there. New technology seems to pre-emptively dispose of more primitive technology, instead of being developed later.

We have plenty of stratification already...more than in the modern US, certainly. If I ever see any sign of the stratification collapsing, I'll let you know.

Pollution producing industries aren't coming till the code is available, and when it is, why not add that to things like iron smelting that really ought to pollute?

Also, as a Role Playing Game, character development really isn't dependant on technology.

[Anthony Roberts]

If Cantr were strictly medieval, wouldn't you get bored? It's all swords and shields, nothing new. We've seen it many times before, in a lot of games, because a lot of people enjoy Medieval games. So do I, very much so. However, Cantr isn't your typical game, is it? It has its own way of doing things, and that involves the mixture of technology levels. The more, the better, I'd say, as it would add a lot of flavour.

Sure, right now, it seems like you could easily just throw some things together and - wow - you've got yourself a city. However, I'm sure in the future, there will be stricter requirements to produce the better things (Ie: Can't make a Sabre, unless you've made some other type of bladed weapon. You just don't instantly know how to make a Sabre.) - Other fine details will be ironed out, and I could be completly and utterly wrong. It could continue the way it is, you know everything and can make anything, always. All you need is the material. It all depends.

But I'm completly and utterly sure that a variety of technical eras would be a benifit to the game, seeing one a band of tribal people and spears, and just down the road a full out metropolis of factories (Think: Fallout.) - Some will strive in their selected era, and advance to other eras, while others will fail terribly and not even get off the ground. Or even, enter a new era that screws up their balanced people, and fall to the ground.

And I disagree that character development has nothing to do with technology. Think about it, as we grow smarter, we create better things to make our lives easier. If suddenly, all those tools were taken away, we'd have to start all over from the basics - and because of such, we'd probably get DUMBER. We'd no longer have structured school systems, and the Internet to learn from - we'd have to learn from others that are willing to teach. Food would be required to be hunted, and as such, some people will grow to enjoy or hate hunting and their personality will reflect on that. Others will be required to construct their peoples shelters, and may professionallize in that trade. If we all were given a knife and rope, how many of us would survive with our current knowledge? Now, what if we grew up with others that have used a knife and rope for survival all their life. Would we not reflect that? Our intelligence too? People are getting smarter, because there are enhanced technologies that assist us in learning. If that technology wasn't there, we'd rely on other ways to learn, ways that may not push us to our potetional. I sure hope you understand all that junk I just typed, sorry if I lost any of you.

[The Industriallist]

If Cantr were strictly medieval, wouldn't you get bored? It's all swords and shields, nothing new. We've seen it many times before, in a lot of games, because a lot of people enjoy Medieval games. So do I, very much so. However, Cantr isn't your typical game, is it? It has its own way of doing things, and that involves the mixture of technology levels. The more, the better, I'd say, as it would add a lot of flavour.

I don't want to undo anything in Cantr already (well, mostly). Cars and Sabres at the same time doesn't bother me anymore. But adding new technology levels is problematic. Especially the way it has been done... But even with perfect execution, each addition unbalances the game a bit.

Sure, right now, it seems like you could easily just throw some things together and - wow - you've got yourself a city. However, I'm sure in the future, there will be stricter requirements to produce the better things (Ie: Can't make a Sabre, unless you've made some other type of bladed weapon. You just don't instantly know how to make a Sabre.) - Other fine details will be ironed out, and I could be completly and utterly wrong. It could continue the way it is, you know everything and can make anything, always. All you need is the material. It all depends.

In the real world, no matter how much knowledge you have there are strict requirements to produce advanced technology. You have to have the right tools, and the infrastructure to maintain them. Revolutionary new technology wouldn't be any use without the pre-existing technology and infrastructure.

In cantr, new technology seems to branch off the sides of the previous tech tree, insted of from the top. You don't even need steel to produce propane, etc. And of course without item degredation, there is no need for infrastructure of any kind...

But I'm completly and utterly sure that a variety of technical eras would be a benifit to the game, seeing one a band of tribal people and spears, and just down the road a full out metropolis of factories (Think: Fallout.) - Some will strive in their selected era, and advance to other eras, while others will fail terribly and not even get off the ground. Or even, enter a new era that screws up their balanced people, and fall to the ground.

I don't know whether I think that is the right path for cantr, but that isn't what's being built up. There are only two 'eras', technologically: B.S. and A.S. (thats before and after steel). It might be contested that posession of wood and posession of iron are also split points.
But no new 'eras' have been added since I started playing cantr, at least. Smelting iron moved the break points around a little, but didn't create any new ones. Every extension since then has added on to one of the existing 'eras' (usually the 'iron age' or the pre-wood age). And I haven't yet seen so much as a suggestion of a new level being added.

And I disagree that character development has nothing to do with technology. Think about it, as we grow smarter, we create better things to make our lives easier. If suddenly, all those tools were taken away, we'd have to start all over from the basics - and because of such, we'd probably get DUMBER. We'd no longer have structured school systems, and the Internet to learn from - we'd have to learn from others that are willing to teach. Food would be required to be hunted, and as such, some people will grow to enjoy or hate hunting and their personality will reflect on that. Others will be required to construct their peoples shelters, and may professionallize in that trade. If we all were given a knife and rope, how many of us would survive with our current knowledge? Now, what if we grew up with others that have used a knife and rope for survival all their life. Would we not reflect that? Our intelligence too? People are getting smarter, because there are enhanced technologies that assist us in learning. If that technology wasn't there, we'd rely on other ways to learn, ways that may not push us to our potetional. I sure hope you understand all that junk I just typed, sorry if I lost any of you.

Intelligence and knowledge are different. You can't mix them up that way.
There isn't any reason to beleive that human intelligence has advanced in the past few hundred (or thousand) years.

Cantr has no learning, and if it did I don't expect there would be 'learning technology'. There is also no motivation for specialization. Furthermore, the design of cantr doesn't allow for marginal living unless 'humans' force it on themselves.

Besides all of which, character development doesn't have anything to do with learning to do things. It is a matter of roleplay.

I'm not rigit about medieval technology. But every time technology takes a step froward, everything seems to go to hell. I guess maybe I just don't want YOU bringing cantr forward.

[Anthony Roberts]

Oh, I see how it is. You don't trust ME adding things to the game Alright. Well, that's too bad, sucker!

Regardless.

You are correct that new things branch off of existing things. This is due to limitations that Resources Department has. When we make a new resource, it needs to be something made off of a current resource. If we want a completly NEW resource (Like, Lead, for example) - It would only be added to NEW islands, by the New Lands Department. Aparently, Jos doesn't want to add new resources to already developed/developing lands, as it unbalances it that way (Or something like that. Personally, I think he should. We still discover new resources in real life in existing places. Like, just recently, a new Emerald Patch was found in northern Canada. Canada hasn't had Emeralds before, but now does. It would be the same if a resource were added to a location that already exists. I dunno if Jos would agree, though.)

We are working on more type of 'Eras', as you would define it. We have several ideas planned, however, due to the above reason of NEW resources, we can't introduce these and work up on them. We're limited.

And, just to add a point, all things are made from basic products. Plastic isn't found from the ground, it's made with a mix of chemicals and such. Steel is made from other resources, simplier ones. I suppose this could put a hindering on your sight of how there's no new 'eras', because they all stream from the same resources. But those basic resources have a variety of uses, and would branch into differnet eras of themselves.

As for the learning, I was commenting on role playing. If a character that grew up in a city with only hunting bows and wooden shields, hunting animals for their food, that's suddenly put into a place where he or she is given a crossbow and sportscar, would that character know how to use them? Some would say, yes. However, I would think that a good role player would KNOW, that since their character grew up in a tech-less location, suddenly being thrusted into a situation with tools unknown, it would cause problems and confusion among the character. This was my intelligence/knowledge argument. I realise they're two different things, intelligence being threshold and knowledge being current attribute - However, both could be increased in the right situations, as to what I was stating with the technology around them. If you only used a bow, you're not challenged. Yet, as soon as you get in the seat of that car, you need to learn how to use it, to increase your knowledge. Later, you'll need to answer things yourself, with problem solving, which would be your intelligence increasing (Artifically. In reality, that intelligence of problem solving would already be there - you've just never used it).

[SekoETC]

At first it bothered me that there are advanced vehicles but still you can't use an average horse and carriage... But I'm used to it now. Let's admit it, traveling from place to place is so dull that my characters would greatly appriciate any means to make it faster. And though in real world you learned to tame animals long before smelting metals.. I wouldn't want to be forced to stick to bone and stone tools. What does bug me though is that people don't know the area where they are spawned in (though they have kinda lived there for twenty years) and thus the thinking of characters reflects too much OOC thinking. If you're born in a primitive location, you still know what metals are though no one there has them, and you're most willing to go search for them as soon as you have gathered enough food.

[The Industriallist]

Difference in definition of 'resources', Anthony. Iron and Steel are both resources in my terminology, even though they are made from the same things and neither can be mined (anymore). Every existing distinction is marked by a material that is key to a number of different applications. But every recent addition has been 'another thing you can make with iron' rather than something new on the top. The tech tree is getting thick in the middle, rather than gaining the depth that your 'eras' argument is based on.

As for the RP:
It was recently declared that the rules about what a character knows are to be deliberately fuzzy. So there is certainly nothing saying that you can know about bows, but not cars. And it is a dangerous thing to talk about 'growing up' in cantr. From my perspective, no one in cantr has a life before spawning, and there is nothing to contradict that.

Without item descriptions, there is no way we can 'problem solve' how to use things.

Besides which, I still see no reason role-playing is dependant on advancing technology.

[Pirog]

Anthony Roberts>

If Cantr were strictly medieval, wouldn't you get bored?

No, I wouldn't. And keeping it in a medieval setting doesn't mean that no new technologies and resouces can be added...there is an endless amount of resouces that would be great in a medieval game.

It's all swords and shields, nothing new.

When Cantr was developed structurally (sp?) it would open up for a lot of new things. Item deterioration would cause the need for professional blacksmiths, a better combat system would open up for towns having trained soldiers, a more advanced system for gathering food would make it a challenge to plant crops and nurture them to get food...and open up for more equal trade with resource rich areas lacking food, weather would cause the demand for clothes and shelter, diseases would force people to make better hygene, and also open up for medicines...pestering rats and other animals eating away on your food would make it important for better storages, closed doors etc.

I would find a more dynamic mediaval Cantr much more interesting than one that is as it is now with the only change that you once in a while get a new invention making you travel faster, gather resource X faster or something similar.

A more dynamic game AND a progressing time line would of course be the best...but it's time to be realistic. You are not a huge game company with endless resources...it will pretty much be a choice of one or the other.

The more, the better, I'd say, as it would add a lot of flavour.

You could put a lot more resources and items in the game and still keep it medieval. Materials like bronze for example would open up for a lot of new tools, also causing different technology levels...just less exagerated ones.

But I'm completly and utterly sure that a variety of technical eras would be a benifit to the game, seeing one a band of tribal people and spears, and just down the road a full out metropolis of factories.

Actually, I think this will be one of the points being hardest to live with.
For one, it won't take long for the people in the meotropolis to come to the tribals and kill them all with their shiny steel weapons, and then expand their town.
And if not it will become like in Civilization, where you have a realistic society simulator with spearmen fighting tanks...and EVERYONE that has played Civilization hates that. I see no reason for why it would be different here.

[Pirog]

The biggest problem with a progressing time line, with new resources and technologies, is that it wasn't implemented from the beginning of the game. As it is now it comes in different steps, with cars implemented before simple tools made from bone etc.

If you want a game that slowly goes from practical stone age to futuristic I think you should reset the game...because the way it is now I don't think you will be able to apply such a timeline to a game where it hasn't existed for several generations.

But as I said earlier, if it was up to me I would scrap the idea in favor of maing the game more complex in other areas. THEN, when you have a really complex and impressive medieval game, you could open up for a SLOW technical progression...

[Antichrist_Online]

The main thing I like about the game is the archaic tech tree. Cantr's history was different, so the tech tree could reflect that. A more diverse tech tree would benefit the game more than a bigger targeted tech tree. From my point of veiw, for some character cantr is modern, for others its primitive, I see it between stoneage and the viking invisions, with a few extra pieces of tech that a rich few have.

[Anthony Roberts]

Industriallist,

Difference in definition of 'resources', Anthony. Iron and Steel are both resources in my terminology, even though they are made from the same things and neither can be mined (anymore)

No, we have the same definition. A "Resource" to me, is anything in bulk. Ie: ### grams of ### - An "object" would be a named item. Ie: Broad Sword.

Without item descriptions, there is no way we can 'problem solve' how to use things.

I agree fully, there should be item descriptions. I'm sure others will say "No there shoudn't, your character doesn't know what it is." - But to that, I say, "If they know how to make it, then they have a use for it in mind. You won't build something you have no uses for."

Pirog,

If Cantr were strictly medieval, wouldn't you get bored?

No, I wouldn't. And keeping it in a medieval setting doesn't mean that no new technologies and resouces can be added...there is an endless amount of resouces that would be great in a medieval game.

You're right, there's anything and everything to be added to Cantr if it were to stay Medieval. However, then it would just be an advanced forum role playing game. You know, those message boards that people role play constantly... Cantr would just be a more self-sufficient and complex form of it. I enjoy Cantr because it is -different-. I love the fact that there's a large degree of DIFFERENCE in what you can do in the game.

Item deterioration would cause the need for professional blacksmiths, a better combat system would open up for towns having trained soldiers, a more advanced system for gathering food would make it a challenge to plant crops and nurture them to get food...and open up for more equal trade with resource rich areas lacking food, weather would cause the demand for clothes and shelter, diseases would force people to make better hygene, and also open up for medicines...pestering rats and other animals eating away on your food would make it important for better storages, closed doors etc.

Now you're getting ahead of yourself. Cantr doesn't have these things, because they take time to implement by the understaffed Programming Department. -IF- these were in the game, then yes, Cantr would be a very rich gaming world to play with. However, the Cantr we currently have is the one being worked on. A tool based off of a tool to gather resources quicker or something is as complex as you're going to get at the moment, and we're going to be stuck with it for awhile. Better to make the most of it, then to sulk in a corner saying "I want this, I need that" when you could enjoy what you have.

For one, it won't take long for the people in the meotropolis to come to the tribals and kill them all with their shiny steel weapons, and then expand their town.
And if not it will become like in Civilization, where you have a realistic society simulator with spearmen fighting tanks...and EVERYONE that has played Civilization hates that. I see no reason for why it would be different here.

This is a problem? I don't see how. It already happens today in Cantr. The stronger people take over the weaker ones. This happens in real life today, too (On a lesser scale, but before during WWI+II, it would happen) - Anyone that has played Civilization in this scenario WOULD be pissed - Anyone in Cantr that had their character killed because their city was too weak WOULD be pissed - Anyone in real life that were shot by a gun from a soldier of another country taking over their land WOULD be pissed (And dead.) - It's life. Nothing can be done against that.

And even still, do you want everyone to be equal? Everyone has a Tank? Everyone has a shield of some sort? No one can kill someone else? What kind of world is that! Not the one we have today, or one for some time. There are primitive people and advanced people, and it will be like that for some time.

The main thing you all need to remember is: Cantr is a SOCIETY SIMULATOR. Not a war game, not a medieval RPG, nor a sci-fi adventure game. Cantr is a Society Simulator. How better to simulate society, then to have it advance? If we were still in the Medieval ages, how far would -we- have advanced, as a society? Without the resources we have today, we woudn't have plans for world peace, and those striving to demolish world hunger. Now THOSE two things are excellent examples of our world society advancing. In Cantr, if vehicles were removed (The high-tech automobiles, anyway) - You'd be forced to walk, use a wagon, and a slow longboat to cross the ocean. You'd only be able to dream of some things, but with better technologies, you can make those things happen.

You'd rather keep Cantr stuck in the bronze age, then let it grow and advance to enhance the game? Oh sure, -currently- it's not much "enhancing" because of current game mechanics. But what if there were programmed things. Don't you think having a Cell Phone would be useful? Call your friend locations away wondering how his trek is? Or, do you still want to hire a messenger to run down the road as quick as he can to send a message, then wait for him to come back? Advancing technologies opens up possibilities, and if coded correctly and added at the right time, it would make Cantr a pretty fun game (Much more fun than it already is! ).

[The Industriallist]

A: my point about resources was that you COULD add new resources to the top of the tech tree, creating actual advancement instead of the 'holy shit, I can make something new with what I have' type of advancement you have now.

B: My point about descriptions is that the RP you are refering to is impossible (or at least very specious) without them.

C: Why would advancing technology in a direction that is closer to the vast majority of the existing technology be less 'different' than adding things that make no sense with existing technology?

D: Adding the things you want to add without some of the better coding just makes the hopelessly unreallistic (and RPG-like rather than 'simulator' like) cantr economy even worse. If we were sitting and sulking, would we be arguing so loudly?

D: well, I actually agree with anthony about that fourth quote. Except that there is no reason to kill the savages. Ignore or enslave!

E: Cantr is called a society simulater, yes. And that's about as accurate as calling Wing Commander a flight simulator. There are so many aspects of real society missing that it's only remotely a simulator. And the missing features are the ones you were deriding Pirog for wanting, not the ability to build "asperagus harvest knife Mk. II"s or speedboats.

F: If there is ever a cell phone in cantr, I will probably quit. Unless the cell phone is accurately implemented, which I'm certain it wouldn't be. Furthermore, didn't you just say that anyone who wanted new coding should shut up and get out of the way of progress?

Also, Cantr society is nowhere near the pre-existing technology cap. I don't want to see anything removed (except maybe propane...) but societies are currently limited by active population, repeated technological upset, and not having had time to develop. Not by being unable to get from Siom to Sjoftich in a week.