Cantr II Discussion Forum

Hello, I’ve been playing for about 5 months, (since day 739) but this is my first post in the discussion forums. I want to say first that I enjoy Cantr II very much, and appreciate everybody for playing along with me, as well as the hard work behind the scenes. I have been looking for a game like this for a long time. It’s the only game I know of with a hard-coded economic and geography system that remains flexible and open-ended enough to allow for great roleplay. I’d like to point out something about the contrast between the linear coded dimension and the nonlinear roleplay dimension of Cantr.

Gathering resources and moving between buildings and regions gives the setting a concrete world on which to create a civilization. But it wouldn’t be a civilization without the human side: the feelings of trust or distrust, love or hate, that connects people together in human-type relationships. One element is the linear coded stuff, such as objects, resources, and separate locations. The other element is the nonlinear emotive stuff, such as language and posing to express feeling. *grin*

In any attempt to bring these two elements together in a virtual world, some quirky stuff happens. Many times I’ll have a character say or do something, but while I am typing, an event happens that changes the situation I am responding to. It happens that a character will ask for potatoes after they have already been given potatoes, or a character will be speaking to another character who has already left the room. We’ve learned to gloss these things over, usually ignoring it, but sometimes someone will come up with a clever IC explanation for the anomaly. In any case, from what I can tell on these boards, we’re not all in agreement about the extent to which roleplay colours the world.

It has been said that if something does not exist in the Cantr world, then you can’t interact with it. I understand that this is an extension of the Capital Rule; if it does not exist in Cantr, then a character should have no knowledge of it, right? It seems simple and useful. There are no orcs, wizards, or dragons. There are no telephones, lasers, or warp drives. But some people (*coughlikeeverybodyincludingmecough*) sometimes make the mistake of thinking that “exists in Cantr” refers only to the hard-coded linear stuff, and completely forget that there is a dimension of the gameworld that exists only in our imaginations.

If characters could really only speak of things that exist as coded physical stuff, I suspect we would find it nigh impossible to talk. Characters enter the world without having to go through the language learning process of a child, and in fact know a great wealth of information about what it is like to interact in a real world with real people. That is the part we make-believe and roleplay.

I have heard characters speak of books and newspapers, but really there are only notes. My own characters have said something along the lines of, “this is a nice town,” without ever having had a message as:

830-5: You see a town.

In fact, Cantr is entirely 2D.

a man in his twenties says to you, “Can you explain to me these terms “high” and “low”? For I do not know to what they refer.”

In a flat world, it’s impossible to point to something high and something low without using our imaginations and relying on knowledge of things known IRL. In one sense, all characters and objects in a region (not considering buildings or vehicles) exist simultaneously at a single point. But characters are not walking inventories with a health gauge. We’re imagining them to be human.

The world obviously has a ground, so let’s pretend there’s also a sky. Is there a sun? Are there clouds? Is it possible to feel the wind on one’s face while pedaling a tandem bike from the shore of Siom to the Reniov Forest?

There is a key strength of Cantr II that couldn’t exist without freeform roleplay: the creation of society. A character cannot become a governor, a councilor, or a king without becoming something that “does not exist in Cantr”, at least not in the hard-coded sense. Roleplay not only gives players in Cantr the flexibility to build a society however they like, it also allows for the touchy feely environment, the face-to-face hearty handshake, and the loving smile that all help to build the fundamental relationships of society.

If we only wanted to keep things “real” while remaining open-ended, then we might as well all play chess on a 20,250,000-square chessboard without any way to win. As it is, let’s not get too disappointed if a character mentions something about periodicals, moon shadows, or cats and dogs. We are, after all, only trying to play with each other.

The beginning would express my own description of the game, in many more words.

Of course refering to the technicalities, they are spawned at 20, and the way I interpret it is that they are given basic knowledge before that age, like language, and a rather large vocabulary. There ought be a better clarification I agree, and if a word is in question, OOC discussion in Cantr is plain annoying, but could be ignored if you question it. I think we get too technical at times. Or just question it in character.

An incident I overheard today, very subtle. Someone used the word paper instead of note, so another character asked soemthing to the degree of where you find paper. I found it a bit too technical, but it was sorted out in character.

Remember, just a game. Enjoy it, lets not beat over the grey area of cantr.

well said

Rusell of Los Angeles>

Well put. I agree with almost everything, except RPing cats and dogs

Nitefyre>

An incident I overheard today, very subtle. Someone used the word paper instead of note, so another character asked soemthing to the degree of where you find paper. I found it a bit too technical, but it was sorted out in character.

Yeah, it was me who played the character who questioned the use of paper...and honestly I totally forgot about notes when I wrote it

The reason for it was that the other character was getting rather annoying, ranting about how he would hurt people with stones and paper etc, but as you said it was sorted out IC.

Russel,

The intent of the rule is to prevent the introduction of items or "things" to the game that should have a physical impact but there is no code to handle them/support it.

The major concern revolves around the roleplay of "fictious" living things and weapons. There's a few key concerns that revolve around the roleplay's impact on the game as well as the future consequences if these items are actually added to the game.

There's been a substantial amount of discussion within the PD about what level of granularity the rule should be applied to. Obviously the strictest being your worst case example - if it's not in the game don't talk about it - which everyone was pretty unanimous that that is not in the spirit of the game or nor what anyone wants. The polar opposite is anything goes, which again doesn't quite meet the intent of the game either and has a huge impact on how the game evolves.

"As it is, let’s not get too disappointed if a character mentions something about periodicals, moon shadows, or cats and dogs. We are, after all, only trying to play with each other."

With the exception of Cats and Dogs this statement is what I would summarize as the spirit of the rule. Characters referring to a sun or water in the ocean etc. isn't the end of the world and I highly doubt you'll see any PD coming down on folks for such Roleplay. Jos has made it fairly clear on a few occasions that he understands the need for things such as *smiles* etc. to add a little interest to the role-play. Environmental things such as "ground", "water" aren't going to be a problem (although I would avoid weather related roleplay to any extent).

The major things that have been identified as out of bounds currently though are:

- "living" things (dogs, cats, domesticated animals in general, people big or small)
- Objects that don't exist in the game (guns, unimplemented tools etc.)
- Some interactions with "items" (ie. it's impossible to "hide" behind a building)

The PD is working to refine the rule so its deliniations can be a little clearer to all players and I think we're starting to get close. Our goal is to make sure that the PD is acting in unison and at the same level of tolerance. There is ongoing dialogue between the members to ensure that there is a mutual understanding of what the parameters are.

One key is to use some of these roleplaying items in moderation and with consideration to other players. If your character is messing around with other characters in a fun way and "pretends" to hide behind a building chances are no one from PD will be sending you a message. On the other hand if your character does it repeatedly then fights with people who say they can still see you while demanding the pretend they can't see you etc you may very well get an e-mail.

At the end of the day the PD's goal isn't to watch every characters move and run the game like a police state. Generally the items that get attention are the bits that happen right in front of our own chars eyes - or gets reported in the CR Breach forum by other players. Especially in cases related to this rule a lot of care and discussion is taken to ensure arbitrary decisions aren't just being made.

Of course if you're concerned that something you'd like your character to do / roleplay is walking the fine line, you can always e-mail players@cantr.net and we'd be happy to help clarify and ensure you stay on the right side of the line.

This topic has been pretty much talked out on the boards recently so we're going to lock this thread for now. Russel, I think you get the intent of the rule but if you have any further questions please don't hesitate to e-mail the Players Department.

Ryan Coleman
Players Dept.