LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

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alecto
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby alecto » Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:47 am

miirkaelisaar wrote:I don't like the idea of them just wasting away though.. I had a character build a stone monument basically on their own and is always alone and has no help maintaining things, just wants something here to remember them by when they eventually die. But no one cares about them so now when they die, so will the monument, and it's point, for my character to be allowed to leave a mark on the world forever and prove they were there, is moot now.


Is your character named Ozymandias?
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alecto
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby alecto » Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:54 am

I would actually prefer to have notes decay rather than landmarks. That makes more sense in terms of RL as well. There are so many notes in the world.
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witia1
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby witia1 » Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:57 am

For me stagnation of Cantr world is worst obstacle in making it interesting.
Sleeping leaders holding keys to everything and new spawns politely accepting that state.
On one hand we are keeping legacy of old days but we are also making less likely for new characters/players to build their own.
So yes, I'm in favor of world as whole to rot away if not maintained.
To make society that cares for it's town more important than town it self. If they care about history then it will be preserved.
And if they don't, I see no point in keeping it in game.
It should be world of characters, they should shape it not museum of old days that mostly only old players understand.
I love when history is kept in Cantr, when there are characters that dig through old notes to recover how it was like year ago.
But that's effort, that's action. It brings something to world, not just sits there.
It is often much more interesting to get this version of what happened, pieced from many notes, testimonies and guesses filling blanks than from someone that was actually alive then.

I think that rot and destruction of present world is crucial to let it move on.
Now I more often than not have this feeling that things in Cantr are made just to do something not becuase there is any need or purpose in it being done.
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Valerie
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Valerie » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:17 am

Suggestion: What about making the descriptions amendable instead of tearing down the entire landmark... like graffitti. Maybe even keeping the original description for historical researchers as a project.
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PaintedbyRoses
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby PaintedbyRoses » Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:08 pm

If you don't already know, on Tuesday, Dec 1st, the great and unique Arecibo Observatory and Telescope in Puerto Rico was destroyed when weathered cables snapped and the observatory fell into the dish. A drone filmed the entire disaster.

https://youtu.be/b3AASKr_iHc Arecibo Observatory - drone and ground view during the collapse & pre-collapse historical footage

https://youtu.be/d3WiRunOsWY How The Arecibo Telescope Could Help Save The World

This catastrophe just illustrates how nothing in RL has or will last forever and we can't expect forever from Cantr.
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Bmot
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Bmot » Fri Dec 04, 2020 2:20 pm

Valerie wrote:Suggestion: What about making the descriptions amendable instead of tearing down the entire landmark... like graffitti. Maybe even keeping the original description for historical researchers as a project.


I don't think this would be likely "instead" of destruction of landmarks, but I do find it an interesting idea, to enable a sort of additional description to be added underneath the original one, indeed working not unlike graffiti. Maybe it can go together nicely with the suggestion for archeology (https://forum.cantr.org/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=28756)
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miirkaelisaar
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby miirkaelisaar » Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:33 pm

But no one has to do maintenance to keep the Great Pyramid of Giza and the Great Wall of China standing, and they have been there for thousands of years, slightly weathered and nowhere near destroyed, and will probably be there another several thousand. Cantr isn't even 350 in game years old. This doesn't make any sense in reality, this is a personal preference of a few people being forced on all of us... nothing lasts forever, but landmarks last millenia, this makes zero sense to me and makes Cantr LESS realistic, if anything.

Also, if we're going to make huge landmarks deteriorate, you better also make every note lying around disappear too. Why should a piece of paper last forever but a monument crumbles away in 50 years? If you're going to destroy history, don't half ass it, just destroy everything so there is no history, if there's no point in keeping it without it being constant work. My characters are so busy feeding all the dumb pets and steeds everyone was so excited about and then didn't want to keep playing those characters, to even stop and make food for themselvees, and now they'll be expected to maintain literally every building, vehicle and landmark, all my characters will starve to death or lose their town.
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Rocket Frog
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Rocket Frog » Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:18 pm

miirkaelisaar wrote:But no one has to do maintenance to keep the Great Pyramid of Giza and the Great Wall of China standing, and they have been there for thousands of years, slightly weathered and nowhere near destroyed, and will probably be there another several thousand. Cantr isn't even 350 in game years old. This doesn't make any sense in reality, this is a personal preference of a few people being forced on all of us... nothing lasts forever, but landmarks last millenia, this makes zero sense to me and makes Cantr LESS realistic, if anything.

Also, if we're going to make huge landmarks deteriorate, you better also make every note lying around disappear too. Why should a piece of paper last forever but a monument crumbles away in 50 years? If you're going to destroy history, don't half ass it, just destroy everything so there is no history, if there's no point in keeping it without it being constant work. My characters are so busy feeding all the dumb pets and steeds everyone was so excited about and then didn't want to keep playing those characters, to even stop and make food for themselvees, and now they'll be expected to maintain literally every building, vehicle and landmark, all my characters will starve to death or lose their town.


Most mastabas a small pyramids were pillaged and/or recycled through time. Same happened to many kinds of monuments when unprotected, abandoned, or forgotten.

Landmarks are not going to deteriorate for now (and if so at some distant future, then it would take as you say hundreds of years). This is not about destroying history, but allowing the game to renew itself and giving people the chance of doing so instead of being selfishly stuck in the past because some people don't want to allow things to change and others to have the same opportunities.

About your characters, that's a personal choice you do. You can always stop doing that at anytime. You don't have to keep going with what others left behind. Maybe there's something there you should start questioning yourself about related to the reasons of why are you doing this, or if things should change.

AGAIN, this is not a discussion about if things will occur or not, but about how. Please, lets stay on topic.
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guilletierno
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby guilletierno » Sat Dec 05, 2020 1:07 am

(me tomo la libertad de plantearlo en español)

Pienso que para los "hitos de metal" (Estatuas de bronce, hierro) una de las soluciones es que al destruirlas, se genere algún tipo de despojo que requiera ser fundido usando caliza y carbón (o propano).

  • estatua de bronce [bronze statue] -> Trozo de chatarra (bronce) [3.750g]
  • gran estatua de hierro [large iron statue] -> Trozo de chatarra (hierro) [25.000 g]
  • gran monumento de hierro [great iron monument] -> 2x Trozo de chatarra (hierro)


Esta chatarra eventualmente se podrá recuperar en un proyecto del horno de fundición (es necesario refinar los números, llené con lo que solicita el horno de fundición para la misma producción)

Fundir trozo de chatarra de bronce
    objetos necesarios:
  • 1 trozo de chatarra de bronce
    materiales necesarios:
  • 3.000g de carbón
    Duración:
  • 18.75 días (proyecto fijo)
    producción:
  • 3.750 g de bronce

Fundir trozo de chatarra de hierro (carbón)
    objetos necesarios:
  • 1 trozo de chatarra de hierro
    materiales necesarios:
  • 30.000g de carbón
    100.000g de piedra caliza
    Duración:
  • 71 días (proyecto fijo)
    producción:
  • 25.000g de hierro

Fundir trozo de chatarra de hierro (propano)
    objetos necesarios:
  • 1 trozo de chatarra de hierro
    materiales necesarios:
  • 6.667g de propano
  • 66.667g de piedra caliza
    Duración:
  • 47 días (proyecto fijo)
    producción:
  • 25.000g de hierro

Otra alternativa es que, al menos lo que está fabricado con hierro, devuelva mineral de hierro en vez del hierro refinado
El vino viene cantando desde la tierra,
baja del cerro hecho agua,
y en una raíz se queda,
y sube por una camino que se llama enredadera,
parra, parrón, vid, mil hojas, verde sombra o como quieras.
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Zanthos » Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:35 am

speaking of notes

We have dozens of storage options, notice boards, books, etc. Notes SHOULD decay, and rather quickly. They're literally free to make and last forever and can be made uneditable. Libraries are useless in Cantr because you can find the same exact notes strewn around any random town.

Obviously this isn't the point of the topic.

My suggestions is thus: rather than a project to destroy a landmark, have an active project where you deal damage to the landmark. Maybe make it a set value, one person "attacking" a landmark can do damage, adjusted by strength/skill/etc once per day. Have landmarks have some sort of health, obviously material and size would determine this. As you deal damage to the landmark, some materials are dropped to the ground. Repairing would require materials added, like healing food for a character.

Now for an actual example: Great stone monument costs 1000000 stone to build. Lets say that gives it 20,000 health. Five people working on taking it down over a year have reduced it to 90% health, generated 25000 stone. To repair it back to 100% health, it will take 100,000 stone.
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Rocket Frog
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Rocket Frog » Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:23 am

guilletierno wrote:(me tomo la libertad de plantearlo en español)

Pienso que (...)


I think this is a great idea!! Right now monuments are gonna stay as they are surely, but at some point their destruction could be a possibility, and this could be really good to make it really tedious to recycle them and therefore unappealing (and realistic).


Zanthos wrote:speaking of notes

We have dozens of storage options, notice boards, books, etc. Notes SHOULD decay, and rather quickly. They're literally free to make and last forever and can be made uneditable. Libraries are useless in Cantr because you can find the same exact notes strewn around any random town.

Obviously this isn't the point of the topic.

My suggestions is thus: rather than a project to destroy a landmark, have an active project where you deal damage to the landmark. Maybe make it a set value, one person "attacking" a landmark can do damage, adjusted by strength/skill/etc once per day. Have landmarks have some sort of health, obviously material and size would determine this. As you deal damage to the landmark, some materials are dropped to the ground. Repairing would require materials added, like healing food for a character.

Now for an actual example: Great stone monument costs 1000000 stone to build. Lets say that gives it 20,000 health. Five people working on taking it down over a year have reduced it to 90% health, generated 25000 stone. To repair it back to 100% health, it will take 100,000 stone.


Well, this could be suggested, indeed, but it's really far from the point we're standing right now. I'm not saying it won't happen, but it's sure kind of far from where we're standing right now.

If by any chance this happens to turn the way to go with landmarks, then I think it could be further discussed as something for every kind of building. It's an interesting door; probably not something that would happen in the immediate future.
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Addicted
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Addicted » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:31 am

Whether or not this thread was about the already implemented ability to destroy landmarks, I'd like to have my say. I would have liked it to have been discussed a bit more before implementing. Consultation always feel good even if you ignore the input because you have your own mind made up.

I get OOC vs IC but we all know that we play for our own reasons and to entertain ourselves. I love the landmarks and found them intriguing when they were introduced. (I hate some, love others and indifferent to most). But! I had the expectation that any I did make would not be torn down and am kinda disappointed at the turnabout as it feels a bit like a broken promise.

It's moot to quote real life examples at me as I don't think Cantr is like (or should be like) real life. It is itself.

I would have voted to not destroy them (unless obscene then GAB should do so). I'm especially found of the history of places. I think history and landmarks are not all that counts to the culture of a place but they do contribute some. (who has keys or wealth etc can impact too but I don't see how landmarks impact this). I think it's a great way to honour some characters or aspect of the culture of a place and would be horrified if some get torn down.

I gather my objections are moot so:

*Make it hard to do (tools required) and take a good while (not logical as it should be easier to knock down then build but I want it to be more effort to knock down then build). This way the town people have a way to stop or notice the effort if they are indoors when it starts etc. We all have busy times in our lives and I would hate to go hiking and log on after two days to find some torn down.
*You only get a small portion of the resource back and it varies % 5-25.
*Or if you do get 75% back, then it's like picking a lock and may not work first or second time. (60-85% recovery) (but I prefer the other option)
* I'd rather they deteriorate slowly with time (120 year to dust?) and require repair to keep up.
*If you implement destruction and deterioration, repair should make it even harder to destroy.
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Tiamo
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Tiamo » Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:41 am

Maybe make destruction possible only when a landmark reaches a certain degree of decay?

There should also be a repair option, of course.
I think ...
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby Alladinsane » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:28 pm

If we are going to "renew" somethings, could we just reset the whole game?

1. We can make all new history and certain pioneers will have a lasting (and destructible) history.
2. The same "trial and possible error" system will not have people second guessing staff mistakes and miscues of the past
3. the legend of "jos" (still seen as a 'god' in some places, would still exist as we list the RL history of the games creation. Soon we will have a "cult of the God, Joshua"

The attempts to deify current staff members might present new rp opportunities along with the movements to change monetary and exchange systems that are being proposed. Its amazing what people can accomplish when nobody wants to take the credit. The original Cantr II has a legacy; destroy it and amount to nothing. Preserve it and make internet history.
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miirkaelisaar
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Re: LANDMARKS: destroying them and the details

Postby miirkaelisaar » Sat Dec 05, 2020 5:31 pm

Rocket Frog wrote:About your characters, that's a personal choice you do. You can always stop doing that at anytime. You don't have to keep going with what others left behind. Maybe there's something there you should start questioning yourself about related to the reasons of why are you doing this, or if things should change.


I respectfully disagree. We are supposed to play a character as that character and not with OOC motivations, my character letting someone's horse starve because I know OOC through another character that they died and aren't coming back is skating the line of CRB, my character letting someone's pet die because I the player don't really care, is OOC. I know it's common for other players to just suddenly change their already established character because they want to just have a brand new one and instead of killing that one and making a new one, they just make the existing one a new person in one second (for example someone's wife of 50 years one day wordlessly robs him so the player can go start afresh with that character), but to me that is 100% cheating, so no, I actually can't do things like that. I take the theme and set rules of this game seriously, especially after some events I've experienced when I did not take OOC interference seriously and was punished for it, so it feels very unfair for you to tell me to just do what I want OOC when I was almost banned for such before and I worked so hard on myself andmy gameplay to assimilate appropriately and follow the rules at all times. If I made a character who is kind and values life, I literally cannot just make them evil and uncaring to suit my own needs, that's OOC reasoning and not right, so because I adhere to the way the game is meant to be played, and others don't, I do suffer more, and your advice is to just stop caring and not play the game right and just change my characters whenever it suits me? Sorry but that doesn't make sense to me, it sounds like you're telling me to ignore all my characters' personalities and motivations and not play the game at all.
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